1 00:00:08,272 --> 00:00:10,973 The Marvel universe is pervasive. 2 00:00:10,975 --> 00:00:12,675 It's a gigantic part of pop culture. 3 00:00:12,677 --> 00:00:15,077 Marvel is a powerhouse today, 4 00:00:15,079 --> 00:00:17,646 but most people don't realize they almost didn't exist. 5 00:00:17,648 --> 00:00:20,983 People think that Stan Lee just came on the scene 6 00:00:20,985 --> 00:00:23,746 and created these great characters, not realizing he had 7 00:00:23,747 --> 00:00:26,555 already been there in the industry for a couple of decades. 8 00:00:26,557 --> 00:00:29,692 You start to unravel the history, and realize that it all began 9 00:00:29,694 --> 00:00:32,061 with Stan Lee going, "I just don't want to do this," 10 00:00:32,063 --> 00:00:34,597 almost walking away from comics. 11 00:00:34,599 --> 00:00:37,050 I had wanted to quit working there. 12 00:00:37,085 --> 00:00:40,302 I wanted to do a lot of things that were different. 13 00:00:40,304 --> 00:00:43,973 Marvel had a lot... a lot of luck in its corner as far as timing. 14 00:00:43,975 --> 00:00:46,742 If you didn't have Stan Lee and Jack Kirby 15 00:00:46,744 --> 00:00:48,410 in the right place at the right time, 16 00:00:48,412 --> 00:00:50,679 we wouldn't be talking about Marvel Comics today. 17 00:00:50,681 --> 00:00:53,215 When you think about Stan Lee and Jack Kirby 18 00:00:53,217 --> 00:00:55,618 writing all of these comic books 19 00:00:55,620 --> 00:00:59,622 that have now become these iconic movies, it's just amazing. 20 00:00:59,624 --> 00:01:01,511 Stan and Jack coming together was a monumental 21 00:01:01,512 --> 00:01:04,220 turn in the history of pop culture that nobody saw coming. 22 00:01:04,255 --> 00:01:07,094 There wasn't anything that would lead you to think 23 00:01:07,164 --> 00:01:09,631 that these guys are going to change the world. 24 00:01:11,201 --> 00:01:15,530 _ 25 00:01:33,869 --> 00:01:37,538 sync & correction by f1nc0 ~ Addic7ed.com ~ 26 00:01:39,029 --> 00:01:42,364 My name isn't Stan Lee, it's Stanley Liebert, 27 00:01:42,366 --> 00:01:45,200 and I cut my last name in half to make it Lee 28 00:01:45,202 --> 00:01:46,602 because I figured someday 29 00:01:46,604 --> 00:01:48,804 I'm going to write the great American novel, 30 00:01:48,806 --> 00:01:50,472 and I don't want to use this name 31 00:01:50,474 --> 00:01:54,209 that's going to be so famous someday, use it on comics. 32 00:01:54,211 --> 00:01:57,253 Stan Lee had aspirations of being a great writer. 33 00:01:57,288 --> 00:02:01,484 He had aspirations of telling the great American story, 34 00:02:01,519 --> 00:02:02,874 but he also had to make a living, 35 00:02:02,909 --> 00:02:04,353 and he made a living in the family business, 36 00:02:04,355 --> 00:02:06,755 which was called Timely Comics at the time, 37 00:02:06,757 --> 00:02:09,358 but eventually it would change its name to Marvel. 38 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,360 Well, I think I was about 17 at the time. 39 00:02:13,364 --> 00:02:17,733 I heard that there was a job open at a publishing company 40 00:02:17,735 --> 00:02:20,803 that was owned by a cousin of mine, 41 00:02:20,805 --> 00:02:24,440 and when I got there, I found out that the job opening 42 00:02:24,442 --> 00:02:27,209 was in the comic book department, 43 00:02:27,211 --> 00:02:29,411 and I use the word "department" loosely, 44 00:02:29,413 --> 00:02:31,847 'cause it consisted of two people, 45 00:02:31,849 --> 00:02:35,351 Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. 46 00:02:35,353 --> 00:02:39,353 I walked in, and I said, "I'm applying for a job here," 47 00:02:39,590 --> 00:02:43,392 and they barely looked up from what they were doin'. 48 00:02:43,394 --> 00:02:45,661 They said, "Okay, okay, we need some help," 49 00:02:45,663 --> 00:02:47,763 and they had me go down and get 'em a sandwich 50 00:02:47,765 --> 00:02:50,099 at the drugstore down below, 51 00:02:50,101 --> 00:02:53,502 and that sorta started the, uh... the story. 52 00:02:53,504 --> 00:02:56,205 Jack Kirby was a blue-collar guy. 53 00:02:56,207 --> 00:03:01,267 He came out of the Lower East Side ghetto, 54 00:03:01,302 --> 00:03:04,580 and, whereas a lot of people used comics as a stepping stone, 55 00:03:04,582 --> 00:03:06,287 Jack Kirby embraced comics. 56 00:03:06,288 --> 00:03:08,118 This is what he wanted to do. 57 00:03:08,119 --> 00:03:11,449 The newspapers at that time were very large, colorful, 58 00:03:11,450 --> 00:03:16,625 and I loved the comics because of the brightness displayed 59 00:03:16,627 --> 00:03:19,328 by the fellows who drew them. 60 00:03:19,330 --> 00:03:21,530 They remain... remain with me always, 61 00:03:21,532 --> 00:03:24,600 and when comic books first came into being, 62 00:03:24,602 --> 00:03:26,702 it drew me to them. 63 00:03:26,704 --> 00:03:30,406 Jack was a great guy, and it was incredible to watch him, 64 00:03:30,408 --> 00:03:34,546 'cause it was as though he had already drawn it in his mind. 65 00:03:34,581 --> 00:03:39,183 Whatever he put down seemed to be really perfect. 66 00:03:40,450 --> 00:03:43,585 Captain America was a pretty quick hit. 67 00:03:43,587 --> 00:03:46,555 It came out just before World War II, 68 00:03:46,557 --> 00:03:48,757 and, you know, it has that famous cover 69 00:03:48,759 --> 00:03:52,628 of Captain America punching out Adolf Hitler. 70 00:03:52,630 --> 00:03:53,530 But what happened was 71 00:03:53,531 --> 00:03:56,365 Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, the creators of Captain America, 72 00:03:56,367 --> 00:03:58,894 left Timely Comics due to the fact that they felt 73 00:03:58,929 --> 00:04:00,936 that they were not financially being compensated 74 00:04:00,938 --> 00:04:02,771 for all the work that they'd been doing, 75 00:04:02,773 --> 00:04:06,308 and suddenly an errand boy, Stan Lee, becomes editor. 76 00:04:06,310 --> 00:04:08,944 I was the only guy left in the department, 77 00:04:08,946 --> 00:04:11,580 and the publisher, he said, 78 00:04:11,582 --> 00:04:13,916 "Do you think you could take care of running this place 79 00:04:13,918 --> 00:04:17,386 until I hire a grown-up?" 80 00:04:17,388 --> 00:04:19,488 I said, "Sure, I can handle it," 81 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:22,591 and he probably forgot to hire the grown-up, 82 00:04:22,593 --> 00:04:27,429 because ever since then, I was the guy doing the comic books. 83 00:04:27,431 --> 00:04:31,533 For 20 years, under Stan's editorship, 84 00:04:31,535 --> 00:04:33,669 the company was pretty much devoted to, like, 85 00:04:33,671 --> 00:04:35,838 chasing whatever fad was out there, you know? 86 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:39,374 They did Westerns, they did horror, they did romance. 87 00:04:39,376 --> 00:04:42,082 Stan wanted to write things other than comics. 88 00:04:42,117 --> 00:04:45,838 Everybody who wrote comics wanted to write things other than comics. 89 00:04:45,873 --> 00:04:49,157 They were disposable items. They were not meant to be reprinted. 90 00:04:49,192 --> 00:04:52,014 It was an industry where, no matter how good you were, 91 00:04:52,049 --> 00:04:54,389 you couldn't get that famous, you couldn't get that rich, 92 00:04:54,391 --> 00:04:57,926 and Stan was just staying in it because that was the job he had, 93 00:04:57,961 --> 00:05:00,429 and he had a relation to the owner of the company, 94 00:05:00,431 --> 00:05:02,965 and it's tough to say, "I'm going to turn that aside now." 95 00:05:02,967 --> 00:05:04,566 Because he was working so many hours, 96 00:05:04,568 --> 00:05:06,889 he couldn't take the time away from comics to write a novel. 97 00:05:06,924 --> 00:05:09,371 He was kind of trapped, in a certain way. 98 00:05:09,373 --> 00:05:11,340 The thing about Jack was 99 00:05:11,342 --> 00:05:14,409 he, you know, had kind of fallen on evil times in the '50s. 100 00:05:14,411 --> 00:05:15,311 The comics changed. 101 00:05:15,312 --> 00:05:18,247 His kind of vitality was no longer really wanted in comics. 102 00:05:18,249 --> 00:05:19,448 They became very bland. 103 00:05:19,450 --> 00:05:22,743 He ended up at DC, and he was doing something like 104 00:05:22,744 --> 00:05:23,919 "Challengers of the Unknown." 105 00:05:23,921 --> 00:05:26,255 He was doing "Challengers of the Unknown" 106 00:05:26,257 --> 00:05:29,458 and a couple other things over there. DC let him go. 107 00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:34,796 They thought that some of his stylistic works were bad drawing. 108 00:05:34,798 --> 00:05:36,431 He had a family to feed. 109 00:05:36,433 --> 00:05:38,700 Jack was scurrying around to different publishers, 110 00:05:38,702 --> 00:05:41,570 trying to find work. There wasn't much. 111 00:05:41,572 --> 00:05:44,540 In the 1950s, there was a big backlash against comics. 112 00:05:44,542 --> 00:05:48,377 There was a senate subcommittee hearing for juvenile delinquency 113 00:05:48,379 --> 00:05:50,679 that pointed the finger at comic books. 114 00:05:50,681 --> 00:05:53,315 You know, churches were holding comic book burnings, 115 00:05:53,317 --> 00:05:57,317 and sales just kind of bottomed out. 116 00:05:57,454 --> 00:06:00,556 Stan had a midlife crisis, for sure. 117 00:06:00,558 --> 00:06:03,625 He was already about 40 years old at that point. 118 00:06:03,627 --> 00:06:07,263 He realized, "I had these dreams, that hasn't happened because 119 00:06:07,264 --> 00:06:10,632 I've been here all this time just coasting along." 120 00:06:10,696 --> 00:06:13,302 At that time, DC started really coming alive 121 00:06:13,304 --> 00:06:15,736 in superheroes, with this genius stroke they had 122 00:06:15,771 --> 00:06:19,406 of putting their main heroes together in one big group. 123 00:06:19,577 --> 00:06:22,345 The fellow who was then the publisher, he said to me, 124 00:06:22,346 --> 00:06:27,434 "You know, Stan, I found out that DC Comics has a book called "The Justice League," 125 00:06:27,484 --> 00:06:29,418 and it's selling pretty well, 126 00:06:29,420 --> 00:06:33,021 and maybe we oughta do a book with a lot of superheroes." 127 00:06:33,023 --> 00:06:38,427 And my wife said to me, "Stan, if you want to quit anyway, 128 00:06:38,429 --> 00:06:41,496 why don't you do one book the way you'd like to do it? 129 00:06:41,498 --> 00:06:46,560 The worst that happens is you'll be fired, but so what? You want to quit." 130 00:06:47,870 --> 00:06:49,879 When your back's against the wall, that's absolutely... 131 00:06:49,914 --> 00:06:53,325 when you're crisis is often when the best ideas come. 132 00:06:54,011 --> 00:06:57,980 I decided I would try to do them a little differently, 133 00:06:57,982 --> 00:07:01,049 and I wanted Jack Kirby to do the first one, 134 00:07:01,051 --> 00:07:03,118 'cause I felt he was the best there is. 135 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,854 It must have been strange for Jack Kirby to come back 136 00:07:05,856 --> 00:07:10,038 and be working for this kid who had been his assistant 137 00:07:10,039 --> 00:07:11,958 almost 20 years earlier, 138 00:07:12,096 --> 00:07:14,596 but there weren't a lot of options for an artist. 139 00:07:14,598 --> 00:07:18,598 He was pretty much forced to come back to Marvel. 140 00:07:18,702 --> 00:07:21,705 At the beginning of the 1960s, the idea that 141 00:07:21,732 --> 00:07:25,540 these two guys would be able to create something special 142 00:07:25,542 --> 00:07:29,411 that would be remembered in a year, 143 00:07:29,413 --> 00:07:34,783 much less decades later, was impossible to fathom. 144 00:07:43,860 --> 00:07:47,429 DC became the establishment in the '50s, 145 00:07:47,431 --> 00:07:50,465 and really the big corporate comic book publishing company 146 00:07:50,467 --> 00:07:52,000 that everybody recognized. 147 00:07:52,002 --> 00:07:53,869 Because DC had the trinity, 148 00:07:53,871 --> 00:07:55,771 Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, 149 00:07:55,773 --> 00:07:59,474 they were already well established 20 years ahead of Marvel Comics. 150 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:01,443 They had the distribution agreements 151 00:08:01,445 --> 00:08:04,546 that got their magazines out into the newsstands, 152 00:08:04,548 --> 00:08:08,748 but they also played it as safe as humanly possible. 153 00:08:08,886 --> 00:08:12,747 As a result, the stories that came about in the comics 154 00:08:12,791 --> 00:08:16,692 were really designed for very young kids. 155 00:08:16,694 --> 00:08:20,162 They were written for 7-year-old kids. 156 00:08:20,164 --> 00:08:24,032 There was no thought, really, of characterization, 157 00:08:24,034 --> 00:08:27,102 of personality, so on the first one, 158 00:08:27,104 --> 00:08:28,737 which became "The Fantastic Four," 159 00:08:28,739 --> 00:08:32,739 I was trying to take these comic book characters 160 00:08:32,843 --> 00:08:36,745 and treat them as if they were in a book 161 00:08:36,747 --> 00:08:39,715 by some famous author, by Charles Dickens, 162 00:08:39,717 --> 00:08:44,467 and make them real characters, as much as possible, 163 00:08:44,588 --> 00:08:45,954 in the comic book medium. 164 00:08:45,956 --> 00:08:48,924 Even the villains are people. 165 00:08:48,926 --> 00:08:51,226 There is something in their lives 166 00:08:51,228 --> 00:08:55,163 that makes them become a problem to others. 167 00:08:55,165 --> 00:08:58,767 They were not like The Justice League over at DC. 168 00:08:58,769 --> 00:09:01,069 They had issues. They had problems. 169 00:09:01,071 --> 00:09:05,144 I honestly don't believe that they thought it would be successful. 170 00:09:06,576 --> 00:09:08,243 I remember seeing "The Fantastic Four" 171 00:09:08,245 --> 00:09:14,149 on the stands in the summer of '61, so I picked it up, 172 00:09:14,151 --> 00:09:16,518 and I really found that it was quite different 173 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,121 from the DC comics. The art was more exciting, 174 00:09:19,123 --> 00:09:21,490 but the writing was even more strange, 175 00:09:21,492 --> 00:09:24,226 because the characters were a little more realistic. 176 00:09:24,228 --> 00:09:27,496 It took those comic book tropes of heroism and so forth, 177 00:09:27,498 --> 00:09:29,450 and kind of turned them on their head by 178 00:09:29,451 --> 00:09:31,598 having these characters not like each other. 179 00:09:31,735 --> 00:09:33,702 Plus, the villain was even sympathetic. 180 00:09:33,704 --> 00:09:37,606 This guy was a tortured guy who could barely see, 181 00:09:37,608 --> 00:09:40,108 a rather pitiful creature. 182 00:09:40,110 --> 00:09:41,710 You know, these comic books 183 00:09:41,711 --> 00:09:45,230 are really about people who are flawed humans, 184 00:09:45,265 --> 00:09:47,291 and I think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby 185 00:09:47,326 --> 00:09:48,884 really brought those characters, 186 00:09:48,886 --> 00:09:51,753 and made them very complex from the beginning, 187 00:09:51,755 --> 00:09:54,523 and ultimately, it resonated with people. 188 00:09:54,525 --> 00:09:56,766 The idea that a team of superheroes 189 00:09:56,767 --> 00:10:00,128 would have fights and break up, it just blew my mind, 190 00:10:00,130 --> 00:10:01,763 and it's immediately better 191 00:10:01,765 --> 00:10:05,222 than the Superman and Batman comics I was reading. 192 00:10:05,668 --> 00:10:08,003 Luckily, the book sold, 193 00:10:08,005 --> 00:10:11,573 and my publisher said, "Gimme another, uh, book, Stan. 194 00:10:11,575 --> 00:10:13,764 We're goin' strong, let's do some more." 195 00:10:13,799 --> 00:10:16,711 Stan thought he was going to quit comics 196 00:10:16,713 --> 00:10:18,079 when he wrote Fantastic Four, 197 00:10:18,081 --> 00:10:20,987 and I think he was as surprised as anybody by its success, 198 00:10:21,022 --> 00:10:23,718 and so all of a sudden, things were working, 199 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,556 and Stan and Jack were able to dig a little bit deeper 200 00:10:27,558 --> 00:10:29,191 into their ambitions. 201 00:10:29,193 --> 00:10:32,194 Bruce Banner is a nuclear scientist 202 00:10:32,196 --> 00:10:35,697 who sees some teenaged greaser driving on the test site, 203 00:10:35,699 --> 00:10:38,066 and he goes out to rescue him 204 00:10:38,068 --> 00:10:42,794 and gets bombarded with gamma rays. 205 00:10:42,973 --> 00:10:45,841 The result of that is that he occasionally 206 00:10:45,843 --> 00:10:48,777 turns into this huge, angry monster. 207 00:10:48,779 --> 00:10:52,779 It's a Jekyll-Hyde situation, 208 00:10:52,983 --> 00:10:55,800 as much a horror story as anything. 209 00:10:56,119 --> 00:10:58,079 Around that time, Stan Lee also decided 210 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,788 to change the name of the company. 211 00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:03,258 Originally, years ago, we were called Timely Comics. 212 00:11:03,260 --> 00:11:06,061 Then we were called Atlas Comics. 213 00:11:06,063 --> 00:11:08,730 I couldn't do enough with the word "Atlas" 214 00:11:08,732 --> 00:11:12,094 in advertising, and I said, "Gee, I'm gonna change the name 215 00:11:12,095 --> 00:11:15,144 of our company to Marvel," 216 00:11:15,339 --> 00:11:20,709 because I could get so much out of it, like sayings like, 217 00:11:20,711 --> 00:11:24,640 "Welcome to the Marvel age of comics." 218 00:11:26,849 --> 00:11:29,361 In a very short amount of time in the early '60s, 219 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:32,187 Lee and Kirby created a huge cast of characters 220 00:11:32,189 --> 00:11:35,156 that, to this day, is just still amazing. 221 00:11:35,158 --> 00:11:36,992 It was a magic between the two of them 222 00:11:36,994 --> 00:11:39,867 that I don't think has ever been reproduced. 223 00:11:40,963 --> 00:11:44,299 Jack, his work very over the top and exaggerated, 224 00:11:44,301 --> 00:11:48,301 and Stan's strength was creating characters 225 00:11:48,305 --> 00:11:51,273 and writing dialogue for them that was very, very human, 226 00:11:51,275 --> 00:11:53,975 and maybe they do sound conflicting, 227 00:11:53,977 --> 00:11:57,779 but on the page, it took that over-the-top situation 228 00:11:57,781 --> 00:12:00,415 and suddenly you could identify with it, 229 00:12:00,417 --> 00:12:03,718 because of the way they acted and the things they said. 230 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,320 It was suddenly very human. 231 00:12:05,322 --> 00:12:07,088 As they grew, as they expanded, 232 00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:09,224 especially during that two-year period, you know, 233 00:12:09,226 --> 00:12:11,993 when they were creating these characters, 234 00:12:11,995 --> 00:12:14,162 people started to sit up and take notice. 235 00:12:14,164 --> 00:12:18,739 You know, another aspect of it is it's great art. 236 00:12:20,269 --> 00:12:21,703 Jack, he created 237 00:12:21,705 --> 00:12:24,172 an in-your-face way of telling a story that, 238 00:12:24,174 --> 00:12:26,107 if you look at comics prior to Jack Kirby's work, 239 00:12:26,109 --> 00:12:28,076 there's no evidence. It's very flat. 240 00:12:28,078 --> 00:12:31,974 DC Comics, very rarely would you see 241 00:12:31,975 --> 00:12:35,951 exaggerated close-ups, or, um, if someone was hit, 242 00:12:35,953 --> 00:12:39,788 there was still that adherence to a middle distance. 243 00:12:39,790 --> 00:12:44,508 What Kirby would do is subvert that incredibly. 244 00:12:44,554 --> 00:12:47,896 He would have close-ups, points of view. 245 00:12:47,898 --> 00:12:49,264 Jack had drawn for DC Comics. 246 00:12:49,266 --> 00:12:50,732 They kept telling him, "Don't draw like that. 247 00:12:50,734 --> 00:12:53,068 Draw more like the serious guys." 248 00:12:53,070 --> 00:12:56,137 Stan recognized that Jack was exaggerating for a purpose, 249 00:12:56,139 --> 00:12:59,808 and he lets Jack soar. 250 00:12:59,810 --> 00:13:02,143 Nobody could draw the way Jack drew. 251 00:13:02,145 --> 00:13:05,080 It was incredible watching him work. 252 00:13:05,082 --> 00:13:07,949 They were pushing each other to get to new creative places 253 00:13:07,951 --> 00:13:09,918 that nobody'd gone to before. 254 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,254 When I first came up with the idea for Spider-Man, 255 00:13:13,256 --> 00:13:17,092 it was natural for me to want Jack Kirby to draw him, 256 00:13:17,094 --> 00:13:19,160 but after Jack had done a few pages, 257 00:13:19,162 --> 00:13:22,097 Peter Parker looked too heroic. 258 00:13:22,099 --> 00:13:24,733 I think Jack was so used to drawing 259 00:13:24,735 --> 00:13:26,968 handsome heroic characters, 260 00:13:26,970 --> 00:13:29,404 so I gave the book to Steve Ditko, 261 00:13:29,406 --> 00:13:31,072 who I felt could draw the character 262 00:13:31,074 --> 00:13:34,876 looking a little less like a superhero. 263 00:13:34,878 --> 00:13:40,218 Steve Ditko, he wasn't interested in the violent action so much. 264 00:13:40,253 --> 00:13:42,283 He emphasized the human aspects of things. 265 00:13:42,285 --> 00:13:44,185 That's why he was so good at people's expressions 266 00:13:44,187 --> 00:13:45,987 and their attitudes. 267 00:13:45,989 --> 00:13:47,956 Peter Parker is this wimpy kid 268 00:13:47,958 --> 00:13:51,126 who, you know, has real-world problems, 269 00:13:51,128 --> 00:13:53,762 and, and... those... those don't go away 270 00:13:53,764 --> 00:13:56,231 because you get bit by the radioactive spider 271 00:13:56,233 --> 00:13:59,167 and, you know, suddenly become this... this superhero. 272 00:13:59,169 --> 00:14:02,003 I think, uh... I think... it's just a great dichotomy, 273 00:14:02,005 --> 00:14:04,239 and always has been. 274 00:14:04,241 --> 00:14:07,308 They inserted human foibles and phobias and weaknesses. 275 00:14:07,310 --> 00:14:11,232 His first thought isn't, "I'm gonna change the world and be a do-gooder." 276 00:14:11,267 --> 00:14:13,148 His first thought is, "I'm gonna cash in." 277 00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:15,550 Isn't that how most people would first think, 278 00:14:15,552 --> 00:14:18,853 and they created an amazing morality tale 279 00:14:18,855 --> 00:14:22,524 by showing the thug go by 280 00:14:22,526 --> 00:14:23,925 when he could have made a difference, 281 00:14:23,927 --> 00:14:25,794 and this ends up leading to the death 282 00:14:25,796 --> 00:14:27,962 of an important person in his life. 283 00:14:27,964 --> 00:14:29,831 They showed a moral consequence 284 00:14:29,833 --> 00:14:33,833 in a way that had real weight that people could relate to. 285 00:14:33,970 --> 00:14:36,504 Peter Parker, his personal life, 286 00:14:36,506 --> 00:14:38,273 that was the star of the book, 287 00:14:38,275 --> 00:14:40,208 and even when he did have the costume, 288 00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:44,345 it was still Peter Parker that you were identifying with in that costume. 289 00:14:44,347 --> 00:14:46,281 That was a big change. 290 00:14:46,283 --> 00:14:47,882 Marvel Comics, at that time, 291 00:14:47,884 --> 00:14:50,251 had created so many revolutionary characters, 292 00:14:50,253 --> 00:14:53,388 but they had one problem, which was their distribution. 293 00:14:53,390 --> 00:14:55,989 In the 1950s, in order to survive, 294 00:14:56,024 --> 00:14:59,676 Marvel signed a really bad deal with DC's parent company, 295 00:14:59,711 --> 00:15:02,831 which now gave them the power to suppress distribution. 296 00:15:02,833 --> 00:15:04,866 They had problems with distribution, 297 00:15:04,868 --> 00:15:06,568 and I think DC was very specific 298 00:15:06,570 --> 00:15:08,236 about making sure that they had problems. 299 00:15:08,238 --> 00:15:10,405 There were only a handful of drugstores 300 00:15:10,407 --> 00:15:13,041 that you could actually find their comic books in. 301 00:15:13,043 --> 00:15:15,247 And this is the time where the war 302 00:15:15,248 --> 00:15:18,214 between DC and Marvel really started. 303 00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:23,051 Through the '40s and '50s, 304 00:15:23,053 --> 00:15:26,488 DC was the 900-pound gorilla in the room, 305 00:15:26,490 --> 00:15:29,924 and so for Marvel to kind of figure out 306 00:15:29,926 --> 00:15:33,461 a new way of doing something, it was obviously a big deal. 307 00:15:33,463 --> 00:15:36,097 When I worked at DC in the '60s, 308 00:15:36,099 --> 00:15:37,565 they just couldn't understand it at all. 309 00:15:37,567 --> 00:15:40,001 "How could these things possibly be selling?" 310 00:15:40,003 --> 00:15:41,536 I mean, I remember being in a meeting once 311 00:15:41,538 --> 00:15:44,239 where somebody was holding up a Spider-Man. 312 00:15:44,241 --> 00:15:48,059 He was saying, "They have this kid talking to his aunt for two pages." 313 00:15:48,094 --> 00:15:51,012 He says, "The readers are going to be bored out of their minds." 314 00:15:51,014 --> 00:15:53,214 He kept looking for the gimmick. 315 00:15:53,216 --> 00:15:55,950 DC definitely knew that Marvel was a threat, 316 00:15:55,952 --> 00:15:58,920 and they definitely suppressed their distribution. 317 00:15:58,922 --> 00:16:01,389 Stan really had to find new ways, 318 00:16:01,391 --> 00:16:03,091 almost grass-root campaigns, 319 00:16:03,093 --> 00:16:06,127 in order to really bring up the popularity of his characters. 320 00:16:06,129 --> 00:16:10,965 I started writing a column called "Stan's Soapbox" 321 00:16:10,967 --> 00:16:13,968 just so that the fans would get to know me, 322 00:16:13,970 --> 00:16:17,906 and get to know what's happening at the Marvel bullpen, 323 00:16:17,908 --> 00:16:22,754 as I referred to it, and I tried to make the credits funny. 324 00:16:22,789 --> 00:16:27,348 For instance, "Drawn by Jack Kirby with great gusto" 325 00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:30,552 and "Leaded by Art Simek with a scratchy pen point," 326 00:16:30,554 --> 00:16:33,509 anything we could do to make the readers feel 327 00:16:33,510 --> 00:16:36,098 they knew us, and liked us, 328 00:16:36,133 --> 00:16:39,911 and we started getting a lot of fan mail, 329 00:16:40,172 --> 00:16:42,564 and even then I had fun with it. 330 00:16:42,566 --> 00:16:46,340 A key difference, if you wrote to... a letter in, as I did, 331 00:16:46,341 --> 00:16:49,170 to the DC Comics, you wrote to "Dear Editor." 332 00:16:49,172 --> 00:16:52,240 If you wrote to the Marvel books, you wrote to "Dear Stan and Jack." 333 00:16:52,242 --> 00:16:54,509 They were on a first-name basis with you automatically, 334 00:16:54,511 --> 00:16:58,511 even though I was a teenager, and they were adults. 335 00:16:59,049 --> 00:17:01,282 "Hey, Stan, how've ya been? 336 00:17:01,284 --> 00:17:04,552 Read this story, that story, boy, it was terrific. 337 00:17:04,554 --> 00:17:06,187 From your pal, So-and-So." 338 00:17:06,189 --> 00:17:09,724 We're a bunch of friends talkin' to each other. 339 00:17:09,726 --> 00:17:12,060 We're not stiff, dull people. 340 00:17:12,062 --> 00:17:13,561 That kind of gave a forum, 341 00:17:13,563 --> 00:17:16,531 a kind of a pre-Internet community, 342 00:17:16,533 --> 00:17:18,566 where, you know, kids from different towns 343 00:17:18,568 --> 00:17:20,335 could connect with each other. 344 00:17:20,337 --> 00:17:23,535 They used to print the addresses, and kids would 345 00:17:23,536 --> 00:17:26,407 then write to each other and start fan clubs. 346 00:17:26,409 --> 00:17:29,203 The Merry Marvel Marching Society. It was a club. 347 00:17:29,238 --> 00:17:32,173 I actually... I think I still have my little stickers for it. 348 00:17:32,208 --> 00:17:36,941 # You'll belong, you'll belong you'll belong, you'll belong # 349 00:17:36,976 --> 00:17:39,988 # To the Merry Marvel Marching Society... # 350 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:41,990 After a while, 351 00:17:41,992 --> 00:17:44,225 I would get the kind of letters you'd get 352 00:17:44,227 --> 00:17:48,029 from a classmate in college whom you hadn't seen for a while, 353 00:17:48,031 --> 00:17:50,531 and he was just kidding around with you in the mail. 354 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:55,737 Marvel definitely, they hit something, 355 00:17:55,738 --> 00:17:57,272 you know, where they were... 356 00:17:57,274 --> 00:17:59,474 they became popular with college kids. 357 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:03,366 I think the reason a lot of these characters caught on 358 00:18:03,401 --> 00:18:06,629 was because it was written at a much higher understanding, 359 00:18:06,664 --> 00:18:11,793 rather than just the very flat, childish superhero comics that went before, 360 00:18:11,828 --> 00:18:14,122 and also you've got to credit people 361 00:18:14,124 --> 00:18:19,003 like Kirby and Steve Ditko and their art for being so cosmic, 362 00:18:19,004 --> 00:18:22,273 and so out there, that, at that time, it just fit in 363 00:18:22,308 --> 00:18:24,784 perfectly with the counterculture and the hippie movement. 364 00:18:24,819 --> 00:18:27,168 The University of California's 365 00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:30,250 humor magazine, The Pelican, recently called Marvel Comics 366 00:18:30,285 --> 00:18:34,271 "the greatest revolution in literature on campus 367 00:18:34,306 --> 00:18:38,046 since the fold-out nude," but I don't understand. 368 00:18:38,048 --> 00:18:42,048 Well, there is a little revolution that we like to think that we've started. 369 00:18:42,052 --> 00:18:43,982 We're offbeat enough to appeal 370 00:18:43,983 --> 00:18:46,879 to the college crowd, to the so-called "in" crowd. 371 00:18:46,914 --> 00:18:51,092 As a matter of fact, Esquire, a few issues back, referred to the 28 people 372 00:18:51,094 --> 00:18:55,443 who were most important to those on campus, and among the 28, 373 00:18:55,478 --> 00:18:58,064 which consisted of politicians and celebrities and so forth, 374 00:18:58,335 --> 00:19:00,468 they had The Hulk and Spider-Man, 375 00:19:00,470 --> 00:19:03,304 two of our ever-loving characters. 376 00:19:03,306 --> 00:19:07,075 Marvel came in and disrupted with kind of a new voice, 377 00:19:07,077 --> 00:19:09,377 where they took all this ancient mythology 378 00:19:09,379 --> 00:19:13,379 and reiterated it into today's world. 379 00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:16,751 I think that a lot of it had to do with the times. 380 00:19:16,753 --> 00:19:21,456 Marvel's approach to creating these neurotic, 381 00:19:21,458 --> 00:19:26,561 relatable superheroes was riding right alongside 382 00:19:26,563 --> 00:19:28,496 rock 'n' roll becoming a real force. 383 00:19:28,498 --> 00:19:32,333 None of this stuff happened in a vacuum. 384 00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:36,204 Pink Floyd using Dr. Strange, 385 00:19:36,206 --> 00:19:39,607 that's disseminating Marvel Comics into the culture, 386 00:19:39,609 --> 00:19:43,277 and having them take hold beyond your core audience, 387 00:19:43,279 --> 00:19:45,580 and for a lot of us who loved comic books, 388 00:19:45,582 --> 00:19:47,749 having somebody reference something you know, 389 00:19:47,751 --> 00:19:48,883 you're like, "Oh, my god... 390 00:19:48,885 --> 00:19:50,885 A, you're cool, B, I know that as well, 391 00:19:50,887 --> 00:19:53,354 and C, it's great that you brought it into this thing." 392 00:19:53,356 --> 00:19:58,118 There was Peter Fonda calling himself Captain America in Easy Rider... 393 00:19:58,153 --> 00:20:00,528 This here is Captain America. 394 00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:03,264 What is the story of Captain America? 395 00:20:03,266 --> 00:20:06,401 - What kind of a cat is he? - Well, we revived him 396 00:20:06,403 --> 00:20:08,369 from the so-called Golden Age of comics. 397 00:20:08,371 --> 00:20:11,639 He's become satirical because we play him straight. 398 00:20:11,641 --> 00:20:13,207 It must have been really cool for Jack Kirby 399 00:20:13,209 --> 00:20:14,642 to bring back Captain America 400 00:20:14,644 --> 00:20:17,378 and really do his character in a whole new way. 401 00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:20,848 He became kind of this disillusioned American. 402 00:20:20,850 --> 00:20:22,550 We see this growing ambition, 403 00:20:22,552 --> 00:20:24,852 in both Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, 404 00:20:24,854 --> 00:20:27,622 that it becomes almost a social criticism. 405 00:20:27,624 --> 00:20:30,758 X-Men were created in the '60s 406 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,760 in a time of civil rights, uh, turmoil and awareness. 407 00:20:35,165 --> 00:20:39,075 I mean, most of all, The X-Men is about tolerance 408 00:20:39,076 --> 00:20:42,281 and not pushing away outsiders. 409 00:20:42,316 --> 00:20:45,673 One of the things I've always been against is bigotry, 410 00:20:45,675 --> 00:20:50,545 and The X-Men, fans have told me that that series 411 00:20:50,547 --> 00:20:54,315 is one of the greatest battles against bigotry 412 00:20:54,317 --> 00:20:55,850 that I could have written. 413 00:20:55,852 --> 00:20:58,286 You can see how the civil rights movement 414 00:20:58,288 --> 00:21:01,422 influenced some of those early X-Men. 415 00:21:01,424 --> 00:21:03,591 You've got senators, like, speaking out 416 00:21:03,593 --> 00:21:06,794 against these people who aren't like you and I, 417 00:21:06,796 --> 00:21:09,397 these giant robots called the Sentinels. 418 00:21:09,399 --> 00:21:12,500 This story came out shortly after there were armed guards 419 00:21:12,502 --> 00:21:16,871 assaulting black people. It's hard to not see the parallels. 420 00:21:16,873 --> 00:21:18,940 Our fan mail, about one-third of it, 421 00:21:18,942 --> 00:21:22,243 very seriously, would be from college kids who'd say, 422 00:21:22,245 --> 00:21:26,414 "I'm doing a dissertation about this, a doctorial thesis about this, 423 00:21:26,416 --> 00:21:31,252 and Stan, really, what was behind thus-and-such happening?" 424 00:21:31,254 --> 00:21:34,222 I'd probably visited more college campuses 425 00:21:34,224 --> 00:21:36,123 than any living being. 426 00:21:37,626 --> 00:21:41,395 As the decade progressed, 427 00:21:41,397 --> 00:21:44,298 Stan came into inventing himself 428 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:46,701 as much as he would invent any other character. 429 00:21:46,703 --> 00:21:53,015 He started as this bald, nebbishy guy, 430 00:21:53,050 --> 00:21:58,075 and he ended the decade this larger-than-life figure 431 00:21:58,110 --> 00:22:01,326 that went around college campuses exclaiming all of these 432 00:22:01,327 --> 00:22:03,451 ridiculous alliterative things. 433 00:22:03,453 --> 00:22:09,290 Life is so insane that if you try to do anything 434 00:22:09,292 --> 00:22:12,360 that is the way things would be in real life, 435 00:22:12,362 --> 00:22:15,029 it has to come across like satire, 436 00:22:15,031 --> 00:22:17,932 so all of a sudden I learned that I'm a satirist. 437 00:22:17,934 --> 00:22:19,934 In a lot of ways, 438 00:22:19,936 --> 00:22:24,042 Stan's life became Stan's art, 439 00:22:24,189 --> 00:22:26,374 and him taking center stage 440 00:22:26,376 --> 00:22:28,976 may not sit as well with somebody like Jack Kirby, 441 00:22:28,978 --> 00:22:31,579 who regards, "Hey, I'm doing the real work here." 442 00:22:31,581 --> 00:22:35,049 Jack was known and respected within the community, 443 00:22:35,051 --> 00:22:37,351 and by hard-core comic book aficionados, 444 00:22:37,353 --> 00:22:40,521 but, you know, if you go to the average person and say, 445 00:22:40,523 --> 00:22:43,655 "Who's Jack Kirby?" they might be like, "I don't know." 446 00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:47,395 If you say, "Who's Stan Lee?" like, "Oh, Spider-Man, Marvel Comics." 447 00:22:47,397 --> 00:22:50,865 This was the problem in Stan and Jack's relationship 448 00:22:50,867 --> 00:22:53,448 in a big, bad way. 449 00:22:59,742 --> 00:23:02,910 Initially, Stan and Jack worked really closely together 450 00:23:02,912 --> 00:23:04,912 to create all of the Marvel universe, 451 00:23:04,914 --> 00:23:06,814 but as Stan became more and more busy 452 00:23:06,816 --> 00:23:10,084 with Bullpen Bulletin and also Stan's Soapbox, 453 00:23:10,086 --> 00:23:13,202 his time was really stretched out, and so a new method 454 00:23:13,237 --> 00:23:16,598 of how he would write and create comics was born. 455 00:23:16,659 --> 00:23:21,429 The Marvel method was a new way of doing comics that they developed, 456 00:23:21,431 --> 00:23:23,064 which essentially transferred a lot of work 457 00:23:23,066 --> 00:23:25,316 that was traditionally the writer's to the artist. 458 00:23:25,351 --> 00:23:28,567 So I'd say, "I'll tell you what the plot is. 459 00:23:28,938 --> 00:23:31,439 You just go home and draw anything, 460 00:23:31,441 --> 00:23:33,841 and I'll put the dialogue and the captions 461 00:23:33,843 --> 00:23:37,919 on your artwork." In that way, I was able to keep 462 00:23:37,954 --> 00:23:40,718 a lot of artists busy at once. They would draw anything. 463 00:23:40,753 --> 00:23:44,222 I never knew what to expect. Sometimes, I didn't even recognize the story. 464 00:23:44,257 --> 00:23:45,853 It was different than what I had told them. 465 00:23:45,855 --> 00:23:49,757 I think that in the Stan-and-Jack relationship, 466 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:52,586 it can't be underestimated that Stan's dialogue 467 00:23:52,587 --> 00:23:56,530 and spokesmanship helped define what Marvel was, 468 00:23:56,532 --> 00:23:58,399 but the Marvel method for the first time 469 00:23:58,401 --> 00:23:59,967 put artists in the driver's seat 470 00:23:59,969 --> 00:24:02,637 of the storytelling process of comics. 471 00:24:02,639 --> 00:24:04,839 The Galactus trilogy that is fondly regarded 472 00:24:04,841 --> 00:24:06,807 as a turning point in comics 473 00:24:06,809 --> 00:24:09,977 was imagined almost wholecloth by Jack Kirby. 474 00:24:09,979 --> 00:24:13,014 I had given Jack the plot, 475 00:24:13,016 --> 00:24:16,150 and he drew it magnificently, as he always did, 476 00:24:16,152 --> 00:24:19,387 but towards the end of the story, 477 00:24:19,389 --> 00:24:23,981 I saw that he had put a guy on a flying surfboard, 478 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,288 and I said, "Hey, I didn't put that in the story. Who's that?" 479 00:24:27,323 --> 00:24:31,503 and Jack said, "I figured a guy like Galactus ought to have 480 00:24:31,538 --> 00:24:36,064 a herald who goes ahead of him to find those planets," 481 00:24:36,215 --> 00:24:39,940 and I thought that was a wonderful idea. 482 00:24:39,942 --> 00:24:42,176 "Let's call him the Silver Surfer, 483 00:24:42,178 --> 00:24:44,612 and we'll make a regular character, 484 00:24:44,614 --> 00:24:46,981 we'll make a star out of him." 485 00:24:46,983 --> 00:24:51,919 So he was really a joint creation of Jack's and mine. 486 00:24:53,055 --> 00:24:56,490 In terms of a creative team, they were co-creators. 487 00:24:56,492 --> 00:24:57,992 They were amazing when they worked together, 488 00:24:57,994 --> 00:24:59,927 but when it came to the public eye, 489 00:24:59,929 --> 00:25:01,629 that's where they really diverged. 490 00:25:01,631 --> 00:25:03,831 Jack had a weird, quirky way of talking, 491 00:25:03,833 --> 00:25:06,567 especially when you put him on camera. 492 00:25:06,569 --> 00:25:08,069 He was terrible in front of a camera. 493 00:25:08,071 --> 00:25:11,072 It's becoming American folklore, 494 00:25:11,074 --> 00:25:15,000 and, of course, uh, I can foresee uh, 495 00:25:15,001 --> 00:25:20,581 a lot more, uh, valid, uh, roads ahead for comics. 496 00:25:20,583 --> 00:25:23,117 His interviews and everything, he was a lot more shy 497 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,019 and not as outspoken as Stan Lee, 498 00:25:25,021 --> 00:25:26,821 which in the long term, would hurt him. 499 00:25:26,823 --> 00:25:28,889 By the end of that time, 500 00:25:28,891 --> 00:25:32,059 Jack has gotten lost in Stan's shadow. 501 00:25:33,195 --> 00:25:35,195 One of the big flashpoints was, uh, 502 00:25:35,196 --> 00:25:38,642 an article in the New York Herald Tribune... 503 00:25:40,635 --> 00:25:42,203 which basically portrayed Stan Lee 504 00:25:42,205 --> 00:25:45,005 as, you know, kind of the genius behind everything, 505 00:25:45,007 --> 00:25:50,652 and was... was gently mocking of Jack Kirby's demeanor. 506 00:25:50,813 --> 00:25:53,581 The article referred to him as looking like 507 00:25:53,583 --> 00:25:56,650 an "assistant manager in a girdle factory, 508 00:25:56,652 --> 00:25:59,820 with a cheap cigar, a cheap suit, and dark eyes," 509 00:25:59,822 --> 00:26:02,656 and really just saying only that, 510 00:26:02,658 --> 00:26:05,092 while dedicating so much of the article to Stan. 511 00:26:05,994 --> 00:26:09,697 And Steve Ditko, who was probably 512 00:26:09,699 --> 00:26:11,799 one of the seminal creators at Marvel Comics at the time, 513 00:26:11,801 --> 00:26:14,595 was not even mentioned in the article at all. 514 00:26:14,936 --> 00:26:17,772 For Ditko, that article really aggravated the tension 515 00:26:17,774 --> 00:26:20,074 that they already had behind the scenes. 516 00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:23,944 They already had huge creative differences regarding Spider-Man. 517 00:26:23,946 --> 00:26:25,679 By the time I was there, 518 00:26:25,681 --> 00:26:27,930 Steve Ditko, you know, never came by the office, except for 519 00:26:27,931 --> 00:26:31,844 a couple of minutes to drop something off, because Stan had decided 520 00:26:31,879 --> 00:26:34,253 that there was just no sense in the two of them speaking. 521 00:26:34,257 --> 00:26:36,257 That was the weirdest thing of all. 522 00:26:36,259 --> 00:26:37,640 It was two people doing their 523 00:26:37,641 --> 00:26:39,593 second-most successful book at that time, 524 00:26:39,595 --> 00:26:41,095 they had been not speaking to each other 525 00:26:41,097 --> 00:26:42,897 for several months already. 526 00:26:42,899 --> 00:26:46,324 Steve Ditko's story and Jack Kirby's story are very similar 527 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,602 in that they both assumed really creative control 528 00:26:48,604 --> 00:26:50,137 of the comics that they were drawing, 529 00:26:50,139 --> 00:26:54,275 stories that were credited solely to Stan Lee, in many cases. 530 00:26:54,277 --> 00:26:56,243 Clearly, if you had a comic 531 00:26:56,245 --> 00:27:00,147 that said, "Written by Stan Lee and drawn by Jack Kirby," 532 00:27:00,149 --> 00:27:03,217 that was giving Stan an awful lot of the credit 533 00:27:03,219 --> 00:27:05,052 for what the artist was doing. 534 00:27:05,054 --> 00:27:09,623 Ditko got out because he just couldn't work like that anymore. 535 00:27:09,625 --> 00:27:12,489 Jack kept at it, believing that at some point, someone 536 00:27:12,490 --> 00:27:15,196 would recognize that he was not just filling pages up 537 00:27:15,198 --> 00:27:20,668 with somebody else's ideas, and somehow that didn't happen. 538 00:27:20,670 --> 00:27:22,269 For years, I mean, 539 00:27:22,271 --> 00:27:24,238 Jack Kirby didn't care that, you know, 540 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,040 that he wasn't being listed as a writer. 541 00:27:26,042 --> 00:27:29,151 Later on, when something becomes successful, then everybody starts saying, 542 00:27:29,189 --> 00:27:32,542 "Well, you know, this percentage of it's mine." "That percentage of it's mine." 543 00:27:32,543 --> 00:27:34,713 With great power comes great responsibility, 544 00:27:34,884 --> 00:27:37,318 and with money comes great problems. 545 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,954 I do think it is a huge shame 546 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:43,956 what happened between Stan and Jack's relationship. 547 00:27:44,126 --> 00:27:46,026 One of the great partnerships in comics history 548 00:27:46,028 --> 00:27:50,185 dissolved into one of the greatest feuds in comics history. 549 00:27:57,773 --> 00:28:01,152 When did I first become aware of Jack Kirby? 550 00:28:01,187 --> 00:28:04,275 It's sort of like saying, "When did you first recognize 551 00:28:04,296 --> 00:28:05,946 that when the sun came up in the morning, 552 00:28:05,948 --> 00:28:07,314 it got brighter," you know? 553 00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:09,650 It's that, it was, like, that level of, like... 554 00:28:09,652 --> 00:28:13,120 He was, to me, Marvel, 555 00:28:13,122 --> 00:28:18,058 and to see the way he was treated, it actually just hurts. 556 00:28:18,927 --> 00:28:21,328 So, by the late '60s, Marvel Comics was a hit, 557 00:28:21,330 --> 00:28:23,898 but Jack Kirby wasn't happy. 558 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:26,867 It wasn't just about credit, it was also about the money. 559 00:28:27,802 --> 00:28:30,237 When the sales went up, their paychecks didn't go up, 560 00:28:30,239 --> 00:28:32,740 and their security at the company didn't go up. 561 00:28:32,742 --> 00:28:35,042 Jack used to use the term "chained to the board." 562 00:28:35,044 --> 00:28:37,144 "I was chained to the board all that time," 563 00:28:37,146 --> 00:28:39,280 and he worked in a cellar, 564 00:28:39,282 --> 00:28:41,048 which he referred to as "the dungeon." 565 00:28:41,050 --> 00:28:43,651 They didn't let these people have lawyers. 566 00:28:43,653 --> 00:28:47,054 When Jack was given a contract, he had to just sign it in the office. 567 00:28:47,056 --> 00:28:49,924 He said to them, "Well, I want to show this to my lawyer." 568 00:28:49,926 --> 00:28:52,726 They said, "We don't let lawyers look at our stuff." 569 00:28:52,728 --> 00:28:55,914 The problem there is, Ditko, like Kirby, 570 00:28:55,915 --> 00:28:58,878 was work for hire. On the day that they decide 571 00:28:58,879 --> 00:29:01,302 they don't need you anymore, "See ya." 572 00:29:01,304 --> 00:29:03,404 On the day that they make something 573 00:29:03,406 --> 00:29:06,440 out of The Fantastic Four, you don't get anything. 574 00:29:06,442 --> 00:29:09,710 Around '65, '66, when they started licensing 575 00:29:09,712 --> 00:29:10,978 a lot of the intellectual property, 576 00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:13,147 and I think that the animated series 577 00:29:13,149 --> 00:29:15,349 was a real kick in the teeth. 578 00:29:15,351 --> 00:29:17,718 Those steel doors behind us, they're closing. 579 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,249 They're trying to lock us in. We can't let that happen. 580 00:29:20,284 --> 00:29:23,991 - Quicksilver, it's time for your speed. - Too late. 581 00:29:23,993 --> 00:29:27,505 Because the comic books were so lively, the producers thought, 582 00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:30,164 "Let's just use the artwork from the comic book pages 583 00:29:30,166 --> 00:29:31,899 and kind of move those around." 584 00:29:31,901 --> 00:29:34,868 No, no! No, wait! There are more behind me. 585 00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:37,905 When he said, "Jeez, shouldn't I get some extra compensation for this?" 586 00:29:37,907 --> 00:29:41,041 it was kind of like, "Just shut up, and go back to drawing stuff." 587 00:29:41,043 --> 00:29:43,377 The publisher wants it all. 588 00:29:43,379 --> 00:29:45,946 The creative people are on a certain plane, 589 00:29:45,948 --> 00:29:48,849 and the publisher is on a certain plane. 590 00:29:48,851 --> 00:29:51,118 He lives with his lawyers and accountants, 591 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,890 and he says, "Well, let's make... Let's get toys out of this. 592 00:29:56,892 --> 00:29:58,492 Let's get sweaters out of this." 593 00:29:58,494 --> 00:30:01,471 You know, and it's very understandable it might have made him bitter. 594 00:30:01,506 --> 00:30:04,865 I think sometimes it got misplaced against Stan to the extent that... 595 00:30:04,867 --> 00:30:06,100 as if Stan was his oppressor 596 00:30:06,102 --> 00:30:10,104 more than, say, the publisher or something, but it's very hard. 597 00:30:10,106 --> 00:30:12,106 He saw Stan advancing and so forth, 598 00:30:12,108 --> 00:30:15,842 and being considered the prime mover of the Marvel universe. 599 00:30:16,411 --> 00:30:20,280 Stan Lee found a way to be inseparable from Marvel 600 00:30:20,282 --> 00:30:23,083 while not actually owning Marvel. 601 00:30:23,085 --> 00:30:27,173 Marvel was always controlled by other corporations, 602 00:30:27,208 --> 00:30:29,390 but he found a way to be that key man 603 00:30:29,392 --> 00:30:32,893 that was inseparable from what the Marvel brand was. 604 00:30:32,895 --> 00:30:34,261 It was his own canniness, 605 00:30:34,263 --> 00:30:36,196 it was his own street smarts, 606 00:30:36,198 --> 00:30:37,498 it was his own business acumen, 607 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:40,334 and it was also the character that he made up. 608 00:30:40,336 --> 00:30:42,132 And unfortunately, the other people who 609 00:30:42,133 --> 00:30:45,202 would buy the companies and trade them back and forth 610 00:30:45,237 --> 00:30:48,040 never valued Jack as they should have. 611 00:30:48,110 --> 00:30:51,111 I guess you don't have a legal obligation to them, 612 00:30:51,113 --> 00:30:52,980 so where does the moral obligation come in? 613 00:30:52,982 --> 00:30:55,049 If somebody gave you their sweat and blood for decades, 614 00:30:55,051 --> 00:30:58,285 gave you all these characters you're exploiting, 615 00:30:58,287 --> 00:31:00,854 like, just... so what? 616 00:31:00,856 --> 00:31:05,540 Throw them a few crumbs just to say "thank you," not "[bleep] you." 617 00:31:05,575 --> 00:31:08,228 He created all of these revolutionary characters, 618 00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:10,998 and at a certain point, Jack had had enough, 619 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,567 and he literally just walked up, threw down the towel, 620 00:31:13,569 --> 00:31:16,203 and he just quit. 621 00:31:18,373 --> 00:31:22,373 Why did Kirby leave Marvel? 622 00:31:23,245 --> 00:31:28,215 I'm going to be very honest with you. I don't know. 623 00:31:28,217 --> 00:31:32,352 I was not... I don't believe I was there at the time. 624 00:31:32,354 --> 00:31:35,556 I think I was in Europe or somewhere, 625 00:31:35,558 --> 00:31:38,058 and I had heard he had left, 626 00:31:38,060 --> 00:31:44,364 and nobody ever gave me an actual reason that I could live with. 627 00:31:44,366 --> 00:31:48,168 It was the same thing with Steve Ditko when he left one day. 628 00:31:48,170 --> 00:31:51,004 To this day, I don't know why he left. 629 00:31:51,006 --> 00:31:53,607 Things happen. 630 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:58,378 I always think of it as the "Ub Iwerks syndrome." 631 00:31:58,380 --> 00:32:00,147 You know Ub Iwerks? 632 00:32:00,149 --> 00:32:01,937 Ub Iwerks was Walt Disney's, you know, 633 00:32:01,938 --> 00:32:05,565 his second-in-command in all the areas that... 634 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,321 He's the guy who probably actually drew 635 00:32:07,356 --> 00:32:10,324 more of Mickey Mouse, and knew more about the animation, 636 00:32:10,326 --> 00:32:13,360 but Ub Iwerks got to feeling unappreciated after a few years. 637 00:32:13,362 --> 00:32:16,899 He went off, and he founded his own animation studio. It failed. 638 00:32:16,934 --> 00:32:20,300 Kirby went to DC, and he did a series of stories 639 00:32:20,302 --> 00:32:22,002 that are kind of known as The New Gods. 640 00:32:22,004 --> 00:32:25,939 At the time, there was a lot of criticism of the storytelling and the dialogue. 641 00:32:25,941 --> 00:32:30,911 You know, everyone loved the art, but it wasn't Stan Lee. 642 00:32:30,913 --> 00:32:33,013 The thing about Kirby is he couldn't write. 643 00:32:33,015 --> 00:32:36,517 We found out for sure. He had a terrible ear for dialogue. 644 00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:40,020 Just, you know, off-putting, clanky dialogue. 645 00:32:40,022 --> 00:32:43,023 And then he parodied Stan as Funky Flashman 646 00:32:43,025 --> 00:32:45,259 in a couple of his books, 647 00:32:45,261 --> 00:32:48,228 kind of a glib salesman-type guy, 648 00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:51,598 makin' fun of Stan's persona. 649 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,667 Stan and I had an argument one time. 650 00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:57,037 I felt Jack Kirby was very... was mistreated at the company. 651 00:32:57,039 --> 00:33:00,138 He was basically telling me, "Well, yeah, but it... 652 00:33:00,173 --> 00:33:02,553 I wasn't the one who did it," and I said, "Did you ever see 653 00:33:02,588 --> 00:33:04,411 one of those Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis movies?" 654 00:33:04,413 --> 00:33:06,513 I said, "There's always a scene in those movies 655 00:33:06,515 --> 00:33:07,915 where Dean Martin says to somebody, 656 00:33:07,917 --> 00:33:11,151 "Hey, you can't do that to my pal." 657 00:33:11,153 --> 00:33:13,120 I said, "Stan, I wish you'd said that more often," 658 00:33:13,122 --> 00:33:17,312 and he didn't speak to me for a long time after that. 659 00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:20,027 These two middle-aged men 660 00:33:20,029 --> 00:33:22,963 basically started from almost desperation, 661 00:33:22,965 --> 00:33:26,700 and created all these popular and revolutionary characters. 662 00:33:26,702 --> 00:33:29,670 Unfortunately, along the way, their relationship fell apart. 663 00:33:29,672 --> 00:33:32,339 The tension that they had behind the scenes 664 00:33:32,341 --> 00:33:35,342 really put all their good work into jeopardy. 665 00:33:45,286 --> 00:33:47,221 I think, despite later conflicts, 666 00:33:47,223 --> 00:33:50,023 I think there was a fondness that they had for each other. 667 00:33:50,025 --> 00:33:55,050 Needless to say, a great synergy in terms of the creativity. 668 00:33:55,085 --> 00:33:57,007 It was on his birthday, 669 00:33:57,042 --> 00:34:00,232 Jack Kirby was doing an interview on the radio, 670 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:03,570 and one of the callers was Stan Lee. 671 00:34:03,572 --> 00:34:08,515 It'd be interesting to know whether or not Galactus's exit speech in FF #50 672 00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:11,743 was an example of Jack's dialogue or Stan's, but you... 673 00:34:11,778 --> 00:34:13,437 Well, I'll say this. 674 00:34:13,438 --> 00:34:16,756 Every word of dialogue in those scripts was mine. 675 00:34:17,486 --> 00:34:19,987 I can tell you that I wrote a few lines myself 676 00:34:19,989 --> 00:34:23,357 - above every panel that I... - Yes, I've seen those... 677 00:34:23,359 --> 00:34:25,225 They weren't printed in the book! 678 00:34:25,227 --> 00:34:28,058 All right, look, both of you... Hey, kids... 679 00:34:28,093 --> 00:34:30,213 I really think... and look, Jack, nobody has 680 00:34:30,248 --> 00:34:32,583 more respect for you than I do, and you know that, 681 00:34:32,618 --> 00:34:34,735 but I don't think you ever felt 682 00:34:34,737 --> 00:34:36,770 that the dialogue was that important, 683 00:34:36,772 --> 00:34:39,539 and I think you felt, "Well, it doesn't matter. 684 00:34:39,541 --> 00:34:41,241 Anybody can put the dialogue in. 685 00:34:41,243 --> 00:34:43,744 It's what I'm drawing that matters," and maybe you're right. 686 00:34:43,746 --> 00:34:46,013 I don't agree with it, but maybe you're right. 687 00:34:46,015 --> 00:34:49,449 You feel like you're intruding on a heavy talk 688 00:34:49,451 --> 00:34:51,618 between an ex-husband and an ex-wife or something, 689 00:34:51,620 --> 00:34:56,604 and the semi-reconciliation is playing out in real time. 690 00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:01,483 You know, Jack, you were talking earlier about your drawing, 691 00:35:01,518 --> 00:35:03,664 and people sometimes criticized your figures. 692 00:35:03,666 --> 00:35:07,567 I always felt that the most important thing about your drawings, 693 00:35:07,569 --> 00:35:11,738 I remember when I was a kid, and I first saw Captain America, 694 00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:14,508 it wasn't the correctness of the anatomy, 695 00:35:14,510 --> 00:35:18,045 but it was the emotion that you put in. 696 00:35:18,047 --> 00:35:21,782 Nobody could convey emotion and drama the way you could, 697 00:35:21,784 --> 00:35:25,719 and nobody could ever draw a hero like you could, 698 00:35:25,721 --> 00:35:28,555 and I think that's something you can be very proud of, 699 00:35:28,557 --> 00:35:32,770 - and I'm proud of you for it. - I have to thank you for, 700 00:35:32,805 --> 00:35:34,561 uh, helping me to keep that style, Stanley, 701 00:35:34,563 --> 00:35:36,330 and, uh, whatever we did together, 702 00:35:36,332 --> 00:35:39,299 we, uh, we got sales for Marvel, and I... 703 00:35:39,301 --> 00:35:42,549 I think it was more than that, Jack. We certainly got the sales, 704 00:35:42,584 --> 00:35:45,878 but whatever we did together, and no matter who did what, 705 00:35:45,913 --> 00:35:48,888 and I guess that's something that'll be argued forever, 706 00:35:48,923 --> 00:35:51,678 but I think there was some slight magic 707 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,115 that came into effect when we worked together, 708 00:35:55,117 --> 00:35:59,117 and I am very happy that we've had that experience. 709 00:35:59,188 --> 00:36:01,788 Well, I was never sorry for it, Stanley. 710 00:36:01,790 --> 00:36:05,790 It was a great experience for me. 711 00:36:06,328 --> 00:36:10,373 It's easy to cast real people and human decisions 712 00:36:10,374 --> 00:36:13,333 with the brush of intention, 713 00:36:13,335 --> 00:36:16,370 and with the brush of, you know, heroes and villains, 714 00:36:16,372 --> 00:36:19,506 but it really just came down to these were people 715 00:36:19,508 --> 00:36:24,302 with all of the messiness of human dynamics. 716 00:36:24,346 --> 00:36:28,849 They were working in the underclass of the publishing business. 717 00:36:28,851 --> 00:36:32,285 There wasn't anything that would lead you to think 718 00:36:32,287 --> 00:36:34,421 that these guys are gonna change the world 719 00:36:34,423 --> 00:36:38,358 with what's goin' on inside their heads. 720 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,495 It was Marvel's 25th anniversary, 721 00:36:41,497 --> 00:36:44,164 and I invited him, and he came, 722 00:36:44,166 --> 00:36:45,899 and Roz, his wife, came. 723 00:36:45,901 --> 00:36:49,269 Stan and I were standing in the back of the room when they came in. 724 00:36:49,271 --> 00:36:50,570 Stan had a glass of wine, 725 00:36:50,572 --> 00:36:52,272 and you know how Stan talks, 726 00:36:52,274 --> 00:36:54,508 he's waving his hands around all the time. 727 00:36:54,510 --> 00:36:57,344 He waves his hand, slams it against a pillar, 728 00:36:57,346 --> 00:37:00,313 hand is slashed, bleeding. 729 00:37:00,315 --> 00:37:02,872 He gets a handkerchief out. He said, "Oh, my god, oh, my god." 730 00:37:02,873 --> 00:37:07,187 And I said, "There's Jack!" so I run over to Jack and Roz, 731 00:37:07,189 --> 00:37:12,426 and I bring them over to Stan, and here's Stan, like this, 732 00:37:12,428 --> 00:37:16,495 and Jack sticks out his hand, and Stan goes... 733 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:19,180 And he shakes his hand, and then he's wiping 734 00:37:19,181 --> 00:37:21,868 the blood off Jack's hand, and they talk for a while, 735 00:37:21,870 --> 00:37:23,770 and they were friends. 736 00:37:23,772 --> 00:37:25,705 They were talking about how great it used to be, 737 00:37:25,707 --> 00:37:28,793 and it was fun, you know, and all the good times they had. 738 00:37:28,794 --> 00:37:31,878 And then Stan said, "You know, I don't care who gets credit. 739 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,523 I don't care who owns it." He says, "I just want to do 740 00:37:34,524 --> 00:37:36,349 one more time with you, one more job," 741 00:37:36,351 --> 00:37:40,421 and Roz said, "Forget it," and dragged Jack away. 742 00:37:40,456 --> 00:37:42,823 So it didn't happen. 743 00:37:42,825 --> 00:37:44,491 While they remained cordial, 744 00:37:44,493 --> 00:37:46,760 unfortunately, they never worked together again 745 00:37:46,762 --> 00:37:48,428 before Kirby passed away. 746 00:37:53,434 --> 00:37:55,893 There's a few different people that can play the 747 00:37:55,894 --> 00:37:58,472 Moses role in the history of comics, and Jack Kirby's one of them. 748 00:37:58,474 --> 00:38:03,944 He was able to lead us to this promised land of story, 749 00:38:03,946 --> 00:38:07,946 but he didn't get to enjoy it himself. 750 00:38:08,717 --> 00:38:10,450 I think when you look at people 751 00:38:10,452 --> 00:38:12,853 that have come up from that environment, 752 00:38:12,855 --> 00:38:16,324 creators negotiating for a fairer piece of what they create 753 00:38:16,359 --> 00:38:18,391 in the way that Rob Liefeld gets a piece 754 00:38:18,393 --> 00:38:19,993 of every piece of Deadpool, 755 00:38:19,995 --> 00:38:22,729 whether it's Robert Kirkman controlling his own destiny 756 00:38:22,731 --> 00:38:24,931 creating something like The Walking Dead, 757 00:38:24,933 --> 00:38:26,666 they were informed by the fact 758 00:38:26,668 --> 00:38:29,715 that Jack Kirby didn't receive that. 759 00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:32,807 And it was those stories that made me go into my career 760 00:38:32,808 --> 00:38:35,775 with my eyes wide open, of going, "If they can do it to Jack Kirby, 761 00:38:35,777 --> 00:38:38,367 they can do it to anybody." 762 00:38:38,379 --> 00:38:41,615 They called him the King, rightfully so, 763 00:38:41,617 --> 00:38:42,883 and if there was a bigger word than that, 764 00:38:42,885 --> 00:38:45,485 - I'd give it to him. - I don't think anybody 765 00:38:45,487 --> 00:38:50,423 was as much a master of the art as Jack was. 766 00:38:50,425 --> 00:38:52,592 He was just the greatest. 767 00:38:52,594 --> 00:38:54,861 In fact, I'm the guy who gave him the nickname 768 00:38:54,863 --> 00:38:56,530 Jack "King" Kirby. 769 00:38:56,532 --> 00:39:00,600 He was the king of the artists to me. 770 00:39:03,571 --> 00:39:07,369 My name isn't Stan Lee. It's Stanley Liebert. 771 00:39:07,404 --> 00:39:09,743 Someday I'm going to write the great American novel, 772 00:39:09,745 --> 00:39:11,711 and I don't want to use this name 773 00:39:11,713 --> 00:39:13,713 that's going to be so famous someday, 774 00:39:13,715 --> 00:39:14,881 use it on comics. 775 00:39:14,883 --> 00:39:19,148 Stan Lee. 776 00:39:21,956 --> 00:39:24,658 It's funny to think maybe in an alternate universe, 777 00:39:24,660 --> 00:39:27,494 Stan did write the great American novel, 778 00:39:27,496 --> 00:39:31,550 it flopped, and he was never heard from again. 779 00:39:31,766 --> 00:39:35,802 Stan did create something akin to the great American novel 780 00:39:35,804 --> 00:39:38,838 by creating this huge Marvel universe, 781 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,442 and by "creating," I mean being part of something 782 00:39:42,444 --> 00:39:44,778 that all these other people were involved in 783 00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:46,913 to help shape it into what it is. 784 00:39:46,915 --> 00:39:48,882 I worked with Steve Ditko, 785 00:39:48,884 --> 00:39:50,750 and I worked with Jack, and it was very clear 786 00:39:50,752 --> 00:39:53,753 that Stan more than pulled his weight. 787 00:39:53,755 --> 00:39:55,689 He was the glue that held it all together. 788 00:39:55,691 --> 00:39:58,057 He was conducting the orchestra. 789 00:39:58,392 --> 00:40:00,694 I don't think he took too much credit. 790 00:40:00,696 --> 00:40:03,848 I think he created the whole thing. Sorry. 791 00:40:03,883 --> 00:40:06,064 Obviously, he could not have done it without Jack Kirby 792 00:40:06,368 --> 00:40:08,735 or Ditko, or the other artists, 793 00:40:08,737 --> 00:40:11,871 but, you know, certainly without Stan Lee, no Marvel Comics. 794 00:40:11,873 --> 00:40:16,710 He's got, like, a spark of youthful energy to him, 795 00:40:16,712 --> 00:40:19,546 and, and, and there's a curiosity inside of him 796 00:40:19,548 --> 00:40:21,114 that doesn't seem to die out, 797 00:40:21,116 --> 00:40:24,918 and I think that that is the true key to long life, 798 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,920 and he's just the perfect archetype for that. 799 00:40:30,359 --> 00:40:33,426 It's really incredible when you think through 800 00:40:33,428 --> 00:40:36,596 what Stan Lee and Jack Kirby have accomplished. 801 00:40:36,598 --> 00:40:40,598 X-Men, and The Hulk, and The Avengers, 802 00:40:41,103 --> 00:40:44,004 they are our biggest stories of today. 803 00:40:44,006 --> 00:40:46,106 You know, they're stories about outsiders, 804 00:40:46,108 --> 00:40:49,409 and I think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, 805 00:40:49,411 --> 00:40:50,810 they were just like them. 806 00:40:50,812 --> 00:40:52,479 They were different, they were ostracized. 807 00:40:52,481 --> 00:40:55,649 They didn't fit into society. 808 00:40:55,651 --> 00:40:57,584 Stan Lee and Jack Kirby 809 00:40:57,586 --> 00:41:00,754 are the Lennon and McCartney of Marvel Comics, 810 00:41:00,756 --> 00:41:03,583 and just like The Beatles, eons from now, 811 00:41:03,618 --> 00:41:05,725 people will still be talking about these characters 812 00:41:05,727 --> 00:41:08,595 and the people who created them, akin on the same level. 813 00:41:08,597 --> 00:41:10,497 They're the gods who created the gods. 814 00:41:11,532 --> 00:41:13,533 I love them all. 815 00:41:13,535 --> 00:41:16,803 I love Thor, I love The Hulk, I love Daredevil, 816 00:41:16,805 --> 00:41:19,639 The X-Men, the Avengers, Spider-Man, 817 00:41:19,641 --> 00:41:23,877 The Fantastic Four, Dr. Strange, The Black Panther... 818 00:41:23,879 --> 00:41:27,647 To me, they're all part of a family. 819 00:41:27,649 --> 00:41:31,649 I tried to put them all in the same world 820 00:41:31,653 --> 00:41:33,520 so that they could meet 821 00:41:33,522 --> 00:41:35,922 and have adventures together, 822 00:41:35,924 --> 00:41:38,124 a universe of characters 823 00:41:38,126 --> 00:41:41,027 that would entertain readers who were young 824 00:41:41,029 --> 00:41:42,862 and readers who were old, 825 00:41:42,864 --> 00:41:46,066 and if I've succeeded in that, 826 00:41:46,068 --> 00:41:48,768 then I'm very happy. 827 00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:55,733 sync & correction by f1nc0 ~ Addic7ed.com ~