1
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Previously on
"The Girl from Plainville"...

2
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I'm going to direct your
attention to July 12th of 2014.

3
00:00:07,049 --> 00:00:09,234
That was the last day
you saw your son alive.

4
00:00:09,259 --> 00:00:10,569
How was he that day?

5
00:00:10,594 --> 00:00:11,612
I know my son.

6
00:00:11,637 --> 00:00:13,969
And he didn't want to die.

7
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Not that day.

8
00:00:16,307 --> 00:00:18,075
I'm here because of Michelle Carter.

9
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I don't like seeing
innocent people prosecuted.

10
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I want to help this girl.

11
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48 Hours wants to talk to me.

12
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- You gonna do it?
- He's not just

13
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a dead kid on the news, you know.

14
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He's Coco.

15
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Go away.

16
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What's wrong?

17
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I'm the murderer's sister,
that's what's wrong!

18
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Get the fuck out!

19
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Can you read
the highlighted text message

20
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from Michelle?

21
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"Then I am left crying in bed at night

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"because I have no one

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"and I have no plans, no future.

24
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I am nothing."

25
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If you ever tell anyone about me,

26
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I will never, ever
fucking talk to you again!

27
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Got it?

28
00:00:55,872 --> 00:00:57,740
_

29
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Your text freaked me out.

30
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Call me back.

31
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_

32
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I'm sorry.

33
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I didn't know you cared that much.

34
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How could you say that?

35
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I don't even have anybody's number.

36
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If something happened to you,
I wouldn't know who to call.

37
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I know, I know, I'm...

38
00:01:56,199 --> 00:01:59,286
I'm sorry, okay?

39
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Is this just a game to you?

40
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No.

41
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Then tell me what to do.

42
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Nothing.

43
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You've done plenty.

44
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What does that mean?

45
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You've been here for me.

46
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You've listened.

47
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It's just not enough.

48
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I'm never satisfied.

49
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I'm stuck.

50
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In my own little reality,

51
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and I thought everything
was good, but...

52
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It's not.

53
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I'm not going to leave you.

54
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You need me.

55
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Stay.

56
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Conrad?

57
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- Synced and corrected by synk -
- www.addic7ed.com -

58
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Carter has waived
her right to a jury trial,

59
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which means the judge alone will decide

60
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whether or not she is guilty.

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If convicted, she faces
up to 20 years in prison.

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Could you please describe
your educational background?

63
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I went to Harvard

64
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and Case Western Reserve Medical School,

65
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researching the
psychophysiology of anxiety.

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And can you please list and describe

67
00:04:05,328 --> 00:04:06,972
your professional activities?

68
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Oh, golly.

69
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There's a lot of them.

70
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I have been practicing psychiatry

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full time since 1968.

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I teach.

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I have a subspecialty
in clinical psychopharmacology.

74
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And what is that?

75
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It's the study of the effect of drugs

76
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on the actual clinical,
real-life behavior of people.

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And have you given any presentations

78
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for any governmental bodies?

79
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Yes.

80
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Well, thank you for carving out

81
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some time with us today, Dr. Breggin.

82
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You're quite a busy man.

83
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Of course. Thank you for the invitation.

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Your Honor.

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Move it along.

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Uh, Dr. Breggin,

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for our non-medical experts in the room,

88
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could you illustrate, uh,
for us what an SSRI is

89
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and how it affects the brain?

90
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The SSRI is a selective

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serotonin reuptake inhibitor.

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And what is serotonin?

93
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Serotonin is a neurotransmitter

94
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that originates deep in the brain.

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It can affect our judgment,

96
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love, and empathy.

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When serotonin is naturally
created by the brain,

98
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these... these receptors fire.

99
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And the idea behind people
who are depressed or... or angry

100
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is that maybe the feed
to the receptor gets backed up.

101
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The brain isn't doing its job.

102
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Right, and the SSRI, it... what?

103
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The SSRI,

104
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like Prozac and all SSRIs,

105
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blocks the removal of serotonin.

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And unfortunately,

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this is very unstable

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because the brain reacts
to this as a toxic intrusion.

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And how does the brain
react to this toxic intrusion?

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After the first dose even,

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the brain stops producing serotonin.

112
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So instead of creating a clear pathway

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for the serotonin to enter the brain,

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Prozac and other SSRIs can actually halt

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the natural production
of serotonin entirely?

116
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Yes, it's possible.

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Oh.

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Does the FDA identify
the SSRIs in a specific way?

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They developed a
black box warning that remains

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the highest level class warning
for all of these drugs.

121
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Does Celexa have a black box warning?

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Yes, it does.

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And do you know specifically

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what the black box warning is on Celexa?

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The black box warning specifically says

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that there's
an increased risk of suicide

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in people aged 24 and younger.

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And to the best of your knowledge,

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was Conrad Roy III

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on Celexa at the time of his death?

131
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Yes, he was.

132
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Thank you. No further questions.

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We'll break for lunch.

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_

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Am I really selfish?

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No.

137
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Why?

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Well, for wanting to kill myself so bad

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and dragging you along with all this.

140
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No.

141
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You're not selfish.

142
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Don't ever think that.

143
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And you're not dragging me along.

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I chose to stay.

145
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I don't want to fail again.

146
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That's what I'm scared of.

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Obviously, you don't
really want to die then.

148
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Because you wouldn't be scared to try.

149
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You'd want to try anything
as much as you could.

150
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I guess you're partially right.

151
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I'm just still
researching and hoping that

152
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I find a better way.

153
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I am so right.

154
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Part of me wants you
to try something and then fail.

155
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Just so you could go get help.

156
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I love you.

157
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Say it back.

158
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I love you too.

159
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I'm gonna turn in.

160
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Okay.

161
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You good?

162
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Yeah, I'm good.

163
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Don't stay up too late, okay?

164
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Hey.

165
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Can I get a beer?

166
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Is it over?

167
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Lunch.

168
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Thank you.

169
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Some of this stuff
this doctor's saying...

170
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We thought we'd be doing
the right thing.

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Right?

172
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Yeah.

173
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Yeah.

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I don't know.

175
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You know what I
can't stop thinking about?

176
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What?

177
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The fucking guacamole.

178
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I mean, how the hell has this kid
never had guacamole before?

179
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Well, I mean, it's not like
we're known for it here.

180
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Fair.

181
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Your mom says you're running.

182
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You even talked to my mom?

183
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Yeah, you sent her over to check on me.

184
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I just didn't like the idea
of you being alone, that's all.

185
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I'm training for the Boston Marathon.

186
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You?

187
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Yeah?

188
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You who drives two blocks.

189
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I who used to drive two blocks.

190
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They say it makes your nipples bleed.

191
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They're not lying.

192
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Hot.

193
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I'm doing it for suicide awareness.

194
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Running it, I mean.

195
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You know, raising money for it.

196
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That's good, Co.

197
00:11:24,726 --> 00:11:25,935
Yeah.

198
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He'd be real proud.

199
00:11:47,214 --> 00:11:49,642
I tried drinking all the water I could,

200
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but nothing happened.

201
00:11:52,587 --> 00:11:54,314
What the fuck is that?

202
00:11:54,339 --> 00:11:56,107
Why didn't you tell me you tried?

203
00:11:56,132 --> 00:11:58,484
All of a sudden, you're trying
and serious about it?

204
00:11:58,509 --> 00:12:00,653
I'm sorry, I want to tell you the truth,

205
00:12:00,678 --> 00:12:04,866
but I don't want to scare you.

206
00:12:04,891 --> 00:12:07,410
I want you to always tell me the truth.

207
00:12:07,435 --> 00:12:09,646
Never be sorry about it.

208
00:12:13,316 --> 00:12:15,610
I want it to look like an accident.

209
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Why?

210
00:12:18,613 --> 00:12:20,715
Well, I'd like people

211
00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:25,119
to think that and not feel guilty.

212
00:12:28,998 --> 00:12:30,183
Can I tell you something?

213
00:12:30,208 --> 00:12:32,168
Of course.

214
00:12:35,421 --> 00:12:40,051
There's nothing anyone can do
that's gonna make me want to live.

215
00:12:41,261 --> 00:12:42,654
Come on!

216
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:43,930
Come in!

217
00:12:46,766 --> 00:12:48,785
You okay?

218
00:12:48,810 --> 00:12:50,495
I can't really talk about it.

219
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,106
That doesn't sound good.

220
00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:55,500
"Ooh, Constantine!

221
00:12:55,525 --> 00:12:57,293
I love you, Constantine."

222
00:12:57,318 --> 00:12:58,920
- Give it back, Cassie...
- You guys write love letters.

223
00:12:58,945 --> 00:13:00,171
Ooh, does he send you dick pics?

224
00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:01,506
I said give it back!

225
00:13:01,531 --> 00:13:03,091
Jesus Christ, fine.

226
00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:04,300
I'm just playing.

227
00:13:04,325 --> 00:13:06,160
This is life and death, Cassie.

228
00:13:13,918 --> 00:13:15,520
Hey.

229
00:13:15,545 --> 00:13:17,605
I'm sorry about Cassie.

230
00:13:17,630 --> 00:13:19,382
- She was...
- Can be a bitch.

231
00:13:20,967 --> 00:13:22,610
Sometimes.

232
00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:25,196
Now he's not responding.

233
00:13:25,221 --> 00:13:26,806
Conrad?

234
00:13:28,808 --> 00:13:30,476
Talk to me.

235
00:13:32,395 --> 00:13:34,414
You can trust me.

236
00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:36,124
Can I?

237
00:13:36,149 --> 00:13:38,209
Of course.

238
00:13:38,234 --> 00:13:40,236
I'm here for you.

239
00:13:49,579 --> 00:13:52,415
God, he's so messed up.

240
00:14:02,633 --> 00:14:04,318
He'll only talk to me about things,

241
00:14:04,343 --> 00:14:08,322
and he said that he won't
be with me anymore

242
00:14:08,347 --> 00:14:10,158
if I tell anyone.

243
00:14:10,183 --> 00:14:13,202
So you have to promise me, okay?

244
00:14:13,227 --> 00:14:14,912
You can't tell anyone, Natalie.

245
00:14:14,937 --> 00:14:16,122
Seriously.

246
00:14:16,147 --> 00:14:17,220
You have to promise.

247
00:14:17,245 --> 00:14:18,249
Of course.

248
00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:20,068
Of course, I won't say anything.

249
00:14:23,237 --> 00:14:25,281
Is there anything I can do?

250
00:14:29,702 --> 00:14:31,429
Oh, it's just...

251
00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:33,456
I don't even know where to begin.

252
00:14:37,011 --> 00:14:38,980
What information did you review

253
00:14:39,005 --> 00:14:41,022
in connection to this case?

254
00:14:41,047 --> 00:14:42,940
Every available medical record

255
00:14:42,965 --> 00:14:45,109
for Michelle and Conrad.

256
00:14:45,134 --> 00:14:49,447
I evaluated every available text, uh,

257
00:14:49,472 --> 00:14:51,949
or phone or Facebook message
for both people.

258
00:14:51,974 --> 00:14:55,244
I interviewed a half a dozen people

259
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:57,955
in great detail who knew Michelle.

260
00:14:57,980 --> 00:15:00,124
And... and why the interviews?

261
00:15:00,149 --> 00:15:02,960
I needed to get, uh, a baseline

262
00:15:02,985 --> 00:15:04,921
for Michelle's behavior.

263
00:15:04,946 --> 00:15:08,424
Was Michelle known to do
mean, angry, hostile things?

264
00:15:08,449 --> 00:15:12,303
Before age 12 was key for me
because at 12,

265
00:15:12,328 --> 00:15:16,849
she begins to develop anorexia
and is put on Prozac,

266
00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:19,185
and she's then medicated off and on

267
00:15:19,210 --> 00:15:21,521
for her entire adolescence.

268
00:15:21,546 --> 00:15:24,486
And did that
have any significance for you

269
00:15:24,511 --> 00:15:29,503
ultimately in forming
certain opinions on this case?

270
00:15:30,012 --> 00:15:32,615
It shows that
she's a very vulnerable person

271
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,700
who does very severe cutting of herself

272
00:15:34,725 --> 00:15:37,495
in order to control her pain.

273
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,205
And did the text messages

274
00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:42,166
between Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy

275
00:15:42,191 --> 00:15:44,127
have any relevance or significance

276
00:15:44,152 --> 00:15:46,963
to your clinical analysis of the case?

277
00:15:46,988 --> 00:15:47,964
Oh, yes.

278
00:15:47,989 --> 00:15:50,967
He's a very distressed young man

279
00:15:50,992 --> 00:15:52,718
who has a lot of family conflict

280
00:15:52,743 --> 00:15:56,764
that, uh, he's dealing with,
and he is constantly

281
00:15:56,789 --> 00:15:59,767
telling Michelle that
he's gonna kill himself

282
00:15:59,792 --> 00:16:01,644
and there's nothing she can do.

283
00:16:01,669 --> 00:16:03,521
And this goes on and on

284
00:16:03,546 --> 00:16:08,073
for hours and hours
and months and months of text.

285
00:16:08,801 --> 00:16:13,322
And she gets more and more desperate.

286
00:16:13,347 --> 00:16:16,200
And this boy that she loves

287
00:16:16,225 --> 00:16:19,120
says that he's going to kill himself

288
00:16:19,145 --> 00:16:22,290
and that he's even got plans.

289
00:16:22,315 --> 00:16:26,002
This is an intolerable position
for her to be in.

290
00:16:26,027 --> 00:16:28,963
Doctor.

291
00:16:28,988 --> 00:16:33,301
What is involuntary intoxication?

292
00:16:33,326 --> 00:16:36,262
It means that there's a disruption

293
00:16:36,287 --> 00:16:38,639
in the neurochemistry of the brain

294
00:16:38,664 --> 00:16:41,851
where intoxication is observable

295
00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:46,152
through thoughts
and behaviors, activities.

296
00:16:46,177 --> 00:16:48,649
And during an intoxication,

297
00:16:48,674 --> 00:16:52,069
the person generally
has loss of judgment,

298
00:16:52,094 --> 00:16:54,572
maybe confusion,

299
00:16:54,597 --> 00:16:57,825
and often loss of memory of the event.

300
00:16:57,850 --> 00:16:59,994
And how do you analyze and determine

301
00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:03,080
if someone is involuntarily
intoxicated by drugs?

302
00:17:03,105 --> 00:17:04,566
Well, first,

303
00:17:04,591 --> 00:17:07,043
you need to know, can the drug do this?

304
00:17:07,068 --> 00:17:08,836
Does Celexa?

305
00:17:08,861 --> 00:17:11,923
Do all SSRIs cause marked
changes in behavior?

306
00:17:11,948 --> 00:17:13,716
Yes.

307
00:17:13,741 --> 00:17:17,470
And when SSRIs cause abnormal reactions,

308
00:17:17,495 --> 00:17:21,015
which involuntary intoxication
is the extreme,

309
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,144
they cause agitation, anxiety, um,

310
00:17:25,169 --> 00:17:27,563
panic, irritability,

311
00:17:27,588 --> 00:17:31,442
and a dramatic, sometimes
instant, shift in behavior.

312
00:17:31,467 --> 00:17:33,511
It's in the diagnostic manual.

313
00:17:35,012 --> 00:17:36,155
And specifically,

314
00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:38,616
as to Michelle, do you have an opinion

315
00:17:38,641 --> 00:17:41,994
as to whether or not she was
involuntarily intoxicated?

316
00:17:42,019 --> 00:17:45,540
Yes, I do. Yes, she was.

317
00:17:45,565 --> 00:17:48,960
There's a significant change
in her behavior

318
00:17:48,985 --> 00:17:51,462
about 11 days before Conrad's suicide

319
00:17:51,487 --> 00:17:53,047
on July 12th.

320
00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:54,590
And as a result of this

321
00:17:54,615 --> 00:17:58,636
involuntary intoxication
suffered by Michelle Carter,

322
00:17:58,661 --> 00:18:00,471
do you have an opinion
as to whether or not

323
00:18:00,496 --> 00:18:02,890
she was able to conform
her actions and conduct

324
00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:05,601
to the requirements of the law?

325
00:18:05,626 --> 00:18:07,562
She couldn't.

326
00:18:07,587 --> 00:18:10,439
She was enmeshed in a delusion

327
00:18:10,464 --> 00:18:15,152
where she was thinking it was
a good thing to help him die,

328
00:18:15,511 --> 00:18:18,823
that she could mitigate
the circumstances,

329
00:18:18,848 --> 00:18:21,200
reassure him that he was
going to heaven,

330
00:18:21,225 --> 00:18:25,454
and that she could then go
to his family and help them

331
00:18:25,479 --> 00:18:28,291
to mourn less severely.

332
00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:30,918
And are you able to pinpoint,

333
00:18:30,943 --> 00:18:33,921
in your opinion, of course, around

334
00:18:33,946 --> 00:18:38,593
when Michelle became
involuntarily intoxicated?

335
00:18:38,618 --> 00:18:41,345
On or about July 2nd,

336
00:18:41,370 --> 00:18:43,998
she begins to help him go to heaven.

337
00:18:58,179 --> 00:19:01,991
I don't know if it's
bad or good that you

338
00:19:02,016 --> 00:19:04,018
understand me this way.

339
00:19:07,688 --> 00:19:11,567
If I do end up...

340
00:19:13,194 --> 00:19:14,987
Dying...

341
00:19:17,531 --> 00:19:20,134
I don't...

342
00:19:20,159 --> 00:19:22,036
want to go to hell.

343
00:19:23,746 --> 00:19:26,040
I don't belong there.

344
00:19:27,124 --> 00:19:29,977
You won't go to hell.

345
00:19:30,002 --> 00:19:32,271
I promise you.

346
00:19:32,296 --> 00:19:35,257
Heaven needs a hero.

347
00:19:40,888 --> 00:19:42,807
You're gonna help me with this tomorrow.

348
00:19:45,351 --> 00:19:47,645
With what?

349
00:19:50,398 --> 00:19:54,669
I've been reading
about it on the internet.

350
00:19:54,694 --> 00:19:58,339
I've been talking
to people online about it.

351
00:19:58,364 --> 00:19:59,840
Talking to who?

352
00:19:59,865 --> 00:20:01,217
I don't know,

353
00:20:01,242 --> 00:20:04,120
it's the internet.

354
00:20:07,081 --> 00:20:09,667
Are you really sure
you're gonna do this?

355
00:20:17,550 --> 00:20:21,261
I'm going to try again.

356
00:20:22,972 --> 00:20:25,224
When I'm home.

357
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,018
Tomorrow.

358
00:20:35,776 --> 00:20:38,070
Promise me something.

359
00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:42,007
Sure.

360
00:20:42,032 --> 00:20:44,844
Say goodbye before you do it.

361
00:20:44,869 --> 00:20:46,620
Of course.

362
00:20:50,624 --> 00:20:52,209
How's he doing?

363
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,231
Not good.

364
00:20:57,256 --> 00:20:59,900
Yeah.

365
00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:03,279
It's a good thing you're doing.

366
00:21:03,304 --> 00:21:04,655
Seriously.

367
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,682
He's really lucky
to have a friend like you.

368
00:21:11,479 --> 00:21:13,205
Girlfriend.

369
00:21:13,230 --> 00:21:14,290
Right.

370
00:21:14,315 --> 00:21:16,484
Girlfriend.

371
00:21:20,654 --> 00:21:22,573
Thanks, Cassie.

372
00:21:33,545 --> 00:21:35,595
Some things I've been doing is

373
00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:39,899
trying to realize that
it's not realistic.

374
00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:41,776
What's going on in my head

375
00:21:41,801 --> 00:21:44,820
that keeps on piling and piling?

376
00:21:44,845 --> 00:21:47,615
He wanted to excel.

377
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,093
He just wanted to be this,
like, great person.

378
00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:55,915
And in my eyes, he was all that.

379
00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:57,541
He was rough on himself.

380
00:21:57,566 --> 00:22:00,586
He really, really struggled

381
00:22:00,611 --> 00:22:05,417
with just disappointing,
I think, my husband and me.

382
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,878
I don't understand why you would want

383
00:22:13,207 --> 00:22:18,062
someone that was
so beautiful inside and out

384
00:22:18,087 --> 00:22:19,605
that had so much,

385
00:22:19,630 --> 00:22:23,676
that was such a kind person to die.

386
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:28,364
How do you describe

387
00:22:28,389 --> 00:22:31,033
what this young woman did?

388
00:22:31,058 --> 00:22:32,910
I cannot.

389
00:22:32,935 --> 00:22:36,814
Only... only she can.

390
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:45,589
Had to fight off a nurse for a cruller.

391
00:22:45,614 --> 00:22:47,883
Worth it.

392
00:22:47,908 --> 00:22:52,096
Any bright ideas in
the half hour I've been gone?

393
00:22:52,121 --> 00:22:53,789
No.

394
00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:56,600
I don't know how to get him.

395
00:22:56,625 --> 00:22:59,645
I... you saw, Moniz loves him.

396
00:22:59,670 --> 00:23:01,772
He trusts him.

397
00:23:01,797 --> 00:23:03,399
None of this was in the report.

398
00:23:03,424 --> 00:23:07,736
Nothing about cutting or...
Or "involuntary intoxication."

399
00:23:07,761 --> 00:23:10,406
I mean, what the hell even is that?

400
00:23:10,431 --> 00:23:13,409
I can't prepare overnight.

401
00:23:13,434 --> 00:23:14,660
Well, maybe that's it.

402
00:23:14,685 --> 00:23:17,563
I mean, he didn't say
any of it in the report.

403
00:23:19,023 --> 00:23:21,442
Gonna have to get him to bury himself.

404
00:23:24,987 --> 00:23:26,797
You said during your direct examination

405
00:23:26,822 --> 00:23:28,841
that the defendant
had been cutting, correct?

406
00:23:28,866 --> 00:23:31,260
Yes.

407
00:23:31,285 --> 00:23:33,888
Would you agree with me
that your initial

408
00:23:33,913 --> 00:23:35,556
60 or so page report

409
00:23:35,581 --> 00:23:38,559
didn't mention
anything about that, correct?

410
00:23:38,584 --> 00:23:40,811
Correct. I didn't have those texts.

411
00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:42,187
Would it be fair to say that

412
00:23:42,212 --> 00:23:45,900
her mother never reported
any concern about cutting?

413
00:23:45,925 --> 00:23:49,278
I didn't interview Mom in that depth.

414
00:23:49,303 --> 00:23:50,821
May I approach, Your Honor?

415
00:23:50,846 --> 00:23:53,073
Mm-hmm.

416
00:23:53,098 --> 00:23:56,285
Didn't you write here,

417
00:23:56,310 --> 00:23:57,786
page 60,

418
00:23:57,811 --> 00:24:00,998
"Michelle's mother cannot
recall any bizarre behavior

419
00:24:01,023 --> 00:24:04,300
"on Michelle's part
at any time of her life,

420
00:24:04,325 --> 00:24:08,113
including during the period
of the alleged crime."

421
00:24:09,573 --> 00:24:11,133
Yes.

422
00:24:11,158 --> 00:24:13,928
So you at least talked
to her a little bit.

423
00:24:13,953 --> 00:24:15,679
Yes.

424
00:24:15,704 --> 00:24:17,222
And in that conversation,

425
00:24:17,247 --> 00:24:21,852
she did not report any concerns
about her daughter at all.

426
00:24:21,877 --> 00:24:24,605
No, she didn't.

427
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:26,982
The information that
you had about her cutting

428
00:24:27,007 --> 00:24:30,069
was based on text messages
with her friends?

429
00:24:30,094 --> 00:24:31,695
Yes.

430
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,864
And now, of course,
when you looked at these messages

431
00:24:33,889 --> 00:24:36,825
where she was talking about
how severely she cut herself,

432
00:24:36,850 --> 00:24:38,827
you would also look at other messages

433
00:24:38,852 --> 00:24:41,705
she sent to other people
contemporaneously?

434
00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:44,583
Yes, she often sent different messages

435
00:24:44,608 --> 00:24:46,073
to different people.

436
00:24:46,098 --> 00:24:48,462
And it would be significant to you

437
00:24:48,487 --> 00:24:52,383
if, uh, she was simultaneously
texting one person

438
00:24:52,408 --> 00:24:54,301
that she was cut so badly,

439
00:24:54,326 --> 00:24:56,220
she had to go to the emergency room

440
00:24:56,245 --> 00:24:58,222
and then a moment later, texting a boy

441
00:24:58,247 --> 00:24:59,765
something completely different.

442
00:24:59,790 --> 00:25:01,600
Yes, she did that a lot

443
00:25:01,625 --> 00:25:03,394
about a lot of different things.

444
00:25:03,419 --> 00:25:04,687
Yes.

445
00:25:04,712 --> 00:25:07,272
But in these texts,

446
00:25:07,297 --> 00:25:10,048
she is claiming that
she's talking to her mother

447
00:25:10,073 --> 00:25:12,319
about going to the hospital, correct?

448
00:25:12,344 --> 00:25:14,363
Yes.

449
00:25:14,388 --> 00:25:16,532
Isn't it true that at the initial outset

450
00:25:16,557 --> 00:25:19,201
of your involvement in this case,

451
00:25:19,226 --> 00:25:22,454
you did not diagnose
the defendant as depressed?

452
00:25:22,479 --> 00:25:25,124
Well, yes, that was the knowledge

453
00:25:25,149 --> 00:25:27,876
I had at the time.

454
00:25:27,901 --> 00:25:29,503
You were wrong?

455
00:25:29,528 --> 00:25:31,005
Oh, golly, yeah.

456
00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:34,133
You completely
misdiagnosed the defendant?

457
00:25:34,158 --> 00:25:35,676
- No.
- Well...

458
00:25:35,701 --> 00:25:38,554
I'm sorry, uh, you said
she wasn't depressed,

459
00:25:38,579 --> 00:25:40,723
and now you're saying she is?

460
00:25:40,748 --> 00:25:43,934
I literally did not
have enough information.

461
00:25:43,959 --> 00:25:47,688
And I didn't know that I didn't
have very much information.

462
00:25:47,713 --> 00:25:50,507
Oh, but when you
talked to the defendant...

463
00:25:52,134 --> 00:25:54,511
I never talked to the defendant.

464
00:26:02,144 --> 00:26:04,163
How many times
have you formed the opinion

465
00:26:04,188 --> 00:26:08,584
that a patient or someone
you've been asked to examine,

466
00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:12,504
uh, is involuntarily intoxicated?

467
00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:15,299
Golly, maybe...

468
00:26:15,324 --> 00:26:18,677
40 times over the last 20 years?

469
00:26:18,702 --> 00:26:20,245
It's really a wild guess.

470
00:26:22,664 --> 00:26:24,558
A wild guess.

471
00:26:24,583 --> 00:26:26,643
So one of the things you need to do

472
00:26:26,668 --> 00:26:29,521
in forming a baseline
is determining if the behavior

473
00:26:29,546 --> 00:26:33,692
during the period in question
is of stark contrast

474
00:26:33,717 --> 00:26:36,862
to his or her normal behavior, correct?

475
00:26:36,887 --> 00:26:38,238
Yes.

476
00:26:38,263 --> 00:26:41,200
Would you agree with me that
if your baseline is off,

477
00:26:41,225 --> 00:26:43,410
it could greatly affect your opinion?

478
00:26:43,435 --> 00:26:46,538
That's why I
carefully rechecked my opinion

479
00:26:46,563 --> 00:26:49,833
and found that everything
in there reconfirmed

480
00:26:49,858 --> 00:26:52,736
the date she had the breakdown
of the intoxication.

481
00:26:54,029 --> 00:26:58,383
Right, you... you were saying
that happened on, uh, July 2nd?

482
00:26:58,408 --> 00:26:59,426
Yes.

483
00:26:59,451 --> 00:27:03,097
It's important that
it happened on July 2nd

484
00:27:03,122 --> 00:27:05,349
because it shows that she had a break.

485
00:27:05,374 --> 00:27:09,228
She behaved one way
on July 1st and on July 2nd,

486
00:27:09,253 --> 00:27:11,688
she behaved entirely differently

487
00:27:11,713 --> 00:27:13,857
because of the intoxication,

488
00:27:13,882 --> 00:27:15,609
and it was completely
out of her control.

489
00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:17,486
Do... do I have that right?

490
00:27:17,511 --> 00:27:18,846
Yes.

491
00:27:24,059 --> 00:27:28,829
Uh, "What about hanging
yourself or stabbing yourself?"

492
00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:31,750
"What about overdosing on sleeping pills

493
00:27:31,775 --> 00:27:34,795
"or suffocating with a plastic bag?

494
00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:37,798
"Sleeping pills would work,

495
00:27:37,823 --> 00:27:39,716
"but if you really want to die,

496
00:27:39,741 --> 00:27:42,594
I don't get why you wouldn't try it."

497
00:27:42,619 --> 00:27:44,805
Yes, correct, exactly.

498
00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:47,724
But you said that her
behavior changed on July 2nd?

499
00:27:47,749 --> 00:27:48,809
Yes.

500
00:27:48,834 --> 00:27:51,436
Well, these text messages

501
00:27:51,461 --> 00:27:53,856
from Michelle Carter to Conrad Roy

502
00:27:53,881 --> 00:27:58,760
were sent on June 29th, 2014.

503
00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:05,409
You're taking my words out of context.

504
00:28:05,434 --> 00:28:07,244
Okay.

505
00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:09,021
May I approach?

506
00:28:12,399 --> 00:28:16,253
Can you please tell the court
what this book is?

507
00:28:16,278 --> 00:28:20,632
Yes, it's the Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual

508
00:28:20,657 --> 00:28:23,302
of Mental Disorders, the DSM-5.

509
00:28:23,327 --> 00:28:27,890
An encyclopedia of every
diagnosed mental disorder.

510
00:28:27,915 --> 00:28:29,391
Yes.

511
00:28:29,416 --> 00:28:31,518
Could you grab the section that covers

512
00:28:31,543 --> 00:28:33,937
involuntary intoxication for me, please?

513
00:28:33,962 --> 00:28:38,066
Well, there is no section
on involuntary intoxication.

514
00:28:38,091 --> 00:28:39,635
It's a legal term.

515
00:28:42,763 --> 00:28:44,990
Well, then, what are
you diagnosing her with?

516
00:28:45,015 --> 00:28:47,910
Oh, she has drug intoxication.

517
00:28:47,935 --> 00:28:50,329
It's in the general group...

518
00:28:50,354 --> 00:28:52,665
Of substance-induced mood disorders.

519
00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:54,958
- So it's not in there.
- Well, it's...

520
00:28:54,983 --> 00:28:57,002
Sir, I'm asking whether or not

521
00:28:57,027 --> 00:29:00,255
the DSM-5 has a specific criteria

522
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,551
for the diagnosis
of involuntary intoxication,

523
00:29:04,576 --> 00:29:07,596
the diagnosis that you are
providing for the defendant.

524
00:29:07,621 --> 00:29:08,889
Is it in there?

525
00:29:08,914 --> 00:29:11,141
Well, no.

526
00:29:11,166 --> 00:29:13,543
- It's a legal...
- Legal term.

527
00:29:15,629 --> 00:29:17,261
I tender the witness, Your Honor.

528
00:29:30,738 --> 00:29:32,808
_

529
00:29:45,535 --> 00:29:48,050
_

530
00:30:08,849 --> 00:30:10,909
Sorry, I took some sleeping pills

531
00:30:10,934 --> 00:30:12,936
and I fell asleep.

532
00:30:21,522 --> 00:30:24,859
You said you wanted this bad.

533
00:30:27,117 --> 00:30:29,344
I knew you wouldn't try hard.

534
00:30:29,369 --> 00:30:31,930
I feel like such an idiot.

535
00:30:32,275 --> 00:30:33,943
Why?

536
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,409
Because you didn't even do anything.

537
00:30:40,505 --> 00:30:42,924
You lied about this whole thing.

538
00:30:44,006 --> 00:30:45,304
I'm just...

539
00:30:46,511 --> 00:30:49,097
I'm just so confused because...

540
00:30:55,437 --> 00:30:58,077
I thought you really wanted to die.

541
00:30:59,566 --> 00:31:02,194
But apparently you don't.

542
00:31:05,363 --> 00:31:08,884
I just feel played and just stupid.

543
00:31:08,909 --> 00:31:10,469
Don't.

544
00:31:10,494 --> 00:31:14,576
I found out a new plan,
and I'm gonna do it.

545
00:31:18,919 --> 00:31:20,837
I don't believe you.

546
00:31:23,467 --> 00:31:26,243
You're gonna have to prove me wrong

547
00:31:27,385 --> 00:31:29,743
because I don't think
you really want this.

548
00:31:30,631 --> 00:31:33,300
You just keep pushing it
to another night.

549
00:31:36,853 --> 00:31:38,772
And you never do it.

550
00:31:44,945 --> 00:31:46,364
Okay.

551
00:31:47,155 --> 00:31:49,424
- Okay what?
- Okay.

552
00:31:49,449 --> 00:31:51,618
I'll prove you wrong.

553
00:32:13,496 --> 00:32:17,666
_

554
00:32:25,081 --> 00:32:26,941
If I were that judge,

555
00:32:26,966 --> 00:32:28,880
you know what I'd say?

556
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:30,423
"Your parents aren't going to miss you

557
00:32:30,448 --> 00:32:33,468
if you're locked up
for the next 30 years."

558
00:32:33,493 --> 00:32:35,512
- This is evil.
- Turn it off.

559
00:32:35,537 --> 00:32:36,888
Where does evil come from?

560
00:32:36,913 --> 00:32:38,014
- It's the news.
- Your sister does not

561
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:39,015
need to hear this right now.

562
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,267
Turn it off, Hayden.

563
00:32:40,292 --> 00:32:42,018
He was an easy target.

564
00:32:42,043 --> 00:32:45,297
It's all about attention,
people noticing her.

565
00:32:46,333 --> 00:32:47,732
We're just supposed to ignore it?

566
00:32:47,757 --> 00:32:49,359
I'm not doing this
with you right now, sorry.

567
00:32:49,384 --> 00:32:50,861
No, you know what everyone thinks of me

568
00:32:50,886 --> 00:32:52,737
in school, in this town?

569
00:32:52,762 --> 00:32:55,073
Hayden, I am sorry,
but this is not helping.

570
00:32:55,098 --> 00:32:56,533
We can't be watching
this garbage right now.

571
00:32:56,558 --> 00:32:57,951
- You should go get ready.
- No, you always yell

572
00:32:57,976 --> 00:33:00,203
at me and I don't understand.
It's always about her.

573
00:33:00,228 --> 00:33:01,538
- Don't be dramatic.
- I'm serious.

574
00:33:01,563 --> 00:33:03,665
All you do is focus on her,
talk about her.

575
00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:06,526
Your closing argument, Mr. Cataldo.

576
00:33:13,491 --> 00:33:17,345
The medical examiner
ruled the death a suicide.

577
00:33:17,370 --> 00:33:19,347
Now, there's no statute
in the state of Massachusetts

578
00:33:19,372 --> 00:33:21,349
outlawing suicide, there's no statute

579
00:33:21,374 --> 00:33:23,226
in the state of Massachusetts that says

580
00:33:23,251 --> 00:33:25,103
it's against the law to help

581
00:33:25,128 --> 00:33:28,565
or assist in a suicide.

582
00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:30,734
The evidence shows that Conrad Roy

583
00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:34,237
was suicidal for a very,
very lengthy period of time.

584
00:33:34,262 --> 00:33:37,032
That comes out in the text
messages very clearly,

585
00:33:37,057 --> 00:33:39,492
and Miss Carter was under no legal duty

586
00:33:39,517 --> 00:33:42,037
to call for assistance.

587
00:33:42,062 --> 00:33:44,539
The evidence also shows
in the text messages

588
00:33:44,564 --> 00:33:47,042
that Conrad Roy

589
00:33:47,067 --> 00:33:50,445
specifically sought out
her encouragement.

590
00:33:52,072 --> 00:33:53,256
Your Honor, I believe that

591
00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:54,549
the Commonwealth has failed to provide

592
00:33:54,574 --> 00:33:58,286
any evidence that
Miss Carter caused him to die.

593
00:33:59,287 --> 00:34:00,430
Thank you.

594
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:02,791
Thank you, Mr. Cataldo.

595
00:34:04,626 --> 00:34:06,978
Who's arguing for the Commonwealth?

596
00:34:07,003 --> 00:34:08,188
Okay.

597
00:34:08,213 --> 00:34:09,339
Okay.

598
00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:17,697
I'm not just gonna stand here and say,

599
00:34:17,722 --> 00:34:19,282
"Look at Commonwealth v. Carter"

600
00:34:19,307 --> 00:34:21,034
and sit down, Your Honor.

601
00:34:21,059 --> 00:34:23,912
With regards
to the offense of manslaughter,

602
00:34:23,937 --> 00:34:26,790
I would, uh,
suggest that the Commonwealth

603
00:34:26,815 --> 00:34:30,210
needed to prove that
the conduct was intentional,

604
00:34:30,235 --> 00:34:32,170
not that the outcome was intentional,

605
00:34:32,195 --> 00:34:34,506
but that the conduct was.

606
00:34:34,531 --> 00:34:36,591
I believe we have done that.

607
00:34:36,616 --> 00:34:40,095
Your Honor, I ask that you consider

608
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,306
not just what you know about Conrad,

609
00:34:43,331 --> 00:34:45,392
but what you have learned
about the defendant

610
00:34:45,417 --> 00:34:47,978
through the course of all this.

611
00:34:48,003 --> 00:34:50,855
The defendant clearly had many,

612
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,151
what she believed, to be
substantial relationships,

613
00:34:55,176 --> 00:34:57,112
mostly through texting.

614
00:34:57,137 --> 00:34:59,864
And for Mr. Cataldo to suggest

615
00:34:59,889 --> 00:35:04,619
that Conrad had free will
is an oversimplification

616
00:35:04,644 --> 00:35:07,038
because she knew him.

617
00:35:07,063 --> 00:35:09,149
She knew he had social anxiety.

618
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:15,088
She knew that he was depressed.

619
00:35:15,113 --> 00:35:17,674
She knew his frailties.

620
00:35:17,699 --> 00:35:21,803
And not only that, Your Honor,
she knew what it was like

621
00:35:21,828 --> 00:35:25,557
to feel lonely
and want someone to talk to.

622
00:35:25,582 --> 00:35:28,518
And she did talk to him that night

623
00:35:28,543 --> 00:35:32,772
and she told him
to get back in the truck.

624
00:35:32,797 --> 00:35:35,442
Yes, the medical examiner
has said this is a suicide,

625
00:35:35,467 --> 00:35:37,527
but she is not the final determiner

626
00:35:37,552 --> 00:35:39,195
of what the crime here is.

627
00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:41,306
You are, Your Honor.

628
00:35:43,308 --> 00:35:45,226
Thank you.

629
00:36:05,997 --> 00:36:07,749
We should go home.

630
00:36:09,542 --> 00:36:11,628
We're here for your sister.

631
00:36:13,463 --> 00:36:15,482
She doesn't want me here.

632
00:36:15,507 --> 00:36:18,385
Well, your mother
needed to take a night off.

633
00:36:22,931 --> 00:36:25,642
Do you think the judge likes me?

634
00:36:31,523 --> 00:36:34,484
It doesn't have anything
to do with him liking you.

635
00:36:43,118 --> 00:36:46,846
Is that... what the...
The doctor was saying,

636
00:36:46,871 --> 00:36:48,581
is that what happened?

637
00:36:51,376 --> 00:36:53,086
Did you black out?

638
00:37:05,014 --> 00:37:06,366
I wish you would talk to me.

639
00:37:06,391 --> 00:37:09,686
I wish you knew that
you could talk to me.

640
00:37:10,687 --> 00:37:12,731
I...

641
00:37:17,235 --> 00:37:19,237
I love you no matter what.

642
00:37:20,613 --> 00:37:23,049
I will always be here for you,

643
00:37:23,074 --> 00:37:25,118
no matter what.

644
00:37:30,999 --> 00:37:34,085
You should just go in without me.

645
00:37:36,713 --> 00:37:39,274
I can't.

646
00:37:39,299 --> 00:37:40,608
It's okay.

647
00:37:40,633 --> 00:37:44,137
No, you're not allowed to be left alone.

648
00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:48,116
We'll just let them get
through the first few songs

649
00:37:48,141 --> 00:37:50,059
and then we'll go in.

650
00:38:15,627 --> 00:38:17,353
I'd like to perform a song for someone

651
00:38:17,378 --> 00:38:19,606
very special to me that's here tonight.

652
00:38:19,631 --> 00:38:22,442
My sister, Michelle.

653
00:38:22,467 --> 00:38:24,594
Michelle, come up here.

654
00:38:29,307 --> 00:38:31,518
- Come on.
- Go on.

655
00:39:04,425 --> 00:39:05,635
Sit.

656
00:39:20,608 --> 00:39:23,586
? Her name is Noelle ?

657
00:39:23,611 --> 00:39:26,256
? I have a dream about her ?

658
00:39:26,281 --> 00:39:28,633
? She rings my bell ?

659
00:39:28,658 --> 00:39:31,636
? Got gym class in half an hour ?

660
00:39:31,661 --> 00:39:34,055
? Oh, how she rocks ?

661
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,683
? In Keds and tube socks ?

662
00:39:36,708 --> 00:39:42,188
? But she doesn't know who I am ?

663
00:39:42,213 --> 00:39:47,193
? 'Cause I'm just ?
? A teenage dirtbag, baby ?

664
00:39:47,218 --> 00:39:52,699
? Yeah, I'm just ?
? A teenage dirtbag, baby ?

665
00:39:52,724 --> 00:39:57,370
? Listen to Iron Maiden, baby ?

666
00:39:57,395 --> 00:39:59,414
? With me ?

667
00:39:59,439 --> 00:40:03,209
? Ooh ?

668
00:40:03,234 --> 00:40:05,837
? Her boyfriend's a dick ?

669
00:40:05,862 --> 00:40:10,925
? He brings a gun to school, ?
? And he'd simply kick ?

670
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:13,845
? My ass if he knew the truth ?

671
00:40:13,870 --> 00:40:16,264
? He lives on my block ?

672
00:40:16,289 --> 00:40:18,808
? He drives an IROC ?

673
00:40:18,833 --> 00:40:24,355
? But he doesn't know who I am ?

674
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:29,444
? And he doesn't give a damn about me ?

675
00:40:29,469 --> 00:40:34,574
? 'Cause I'm just ?
? A teenage dirtbag, baby ?

676
00:40:34,599 --> 00:40:40,246
? Yeah, I'm just ?
? A teenage dirtbag, baby ?

677
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:44,542
? Listen to Iron Maiden, baby ?

678
00:40:44,567 --> 00:40:46,319
? With me ?

679
00:40:49,405 --> 00:40:52,050
? Oh, yeah ?

680
00:40:52,075 --> 00:40:55,470
? Dirtbag ?

681
00:40:55,495 --> 00:40:59,682
? She doesn't know what she's missing ?

682
00:40:59,707 --> 00:41:02,477
? Oh, yeah ?

683
00:41:02,502 --> 00:41:04,896
? Dirtbag ?

684
00:41:04,921 --> 00:41:06,773
? No, she doesn't know ?

685
00:41:06,798 --> 00:41:07,941
? What she's missing ?

686
00:41:07,966 --> 00:41:09,884
Stop!

687
00:41:12,261 --> 00:41:13,571
You okay?

688
00:41:13,596 --> 00:41:17,659
? Can anybody find me ?

689
00:41:17,684 --> 00:41:23,456
? Somebody to ?

690
00:41:23,481 --> 00:41:27,933
? Love ?

691
00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:36,490
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